How Should We Think About Feedback - Carol Sanford

In today’s episode, I chat with Carol Sanford, a Seattle, Washington-based serial entrepreneur, author, speaker & executive producer at the Regenerative Business Summit, an event held annually in Seattle each year To elevate and enrich the conversation about regeneration and focus it on innovative, enlightened disruption in business and industries.

Carol launched two start-ups, operated and sold them. Then turned to teaching and educating businesses globally.

She brings a wealth of experience, knowledge, and strong opinions about the true value of feedback. She argues it’s really not that valuable, which sparked an interesting, and at times, impassioned conversation that challenges some of our most deeply-held beliefs.

In the nearly 100 podcasts I’ve recorded, this one stands out. And I hope you enjoy it. 

We had a great discussion and I hope you enjoy it.

Carol Sanford

Senior Fellow of Social Innovation, Babson College; CEO, The Regenerative Paradigm Institute, Educator and Social Change designer for people in change agents roles, organizational leaders who aspire to making a difference, business and organizational teams pursuing meaning work and business effectiveness.

Author of Five best-selling books, including The Regenerative Life: Transform Any Organization, Our Society, Your Destiny, No More Feedback, The Regenerative Business (Michiel Bakker, Google VP wrote Foreword.) 22 Gold Awards thus far for her books.  All five books are built around case stories of specific transformation in people, business, community and regions. Exec Producer, The Regenerative Business Summit and Producer & On Air Talent, Business Second Opinion Podcast.

LinkedIn
Website

Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

LinkedIn
Instagram
Twitter
Website
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Pocket Cast

Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

LinkedIn
Twitter

Transcript

CarolSanford FULL project

[00:00:00] Guest 1: But if instead you gave them the capacity to see for themselves, with the implications, the effect of where [00:00:10] things were going, they had a very different experience.

It also caused him to, uh, Projections on to other people [00:00:20] that were damaging to others. And then therefore they become a source of breaking down the working of the organization.

intro

[00:00:27] Matt: [00:00:30] [00:00:40] Constraints drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex issues [00:00:50] related to work and culture. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, [00:01:00] thinking inside the box.

And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace VR. In today's [00:01:10] episode, I chat with Carol Sanford, a Seattle Washington based serial entrepreneur, author, speaker, and executive producer at the regenerative business. [00:01:20] An annual event held in Seattle, meant to elevate and enrich conversation about regeneration and focus it on innovative, enlightened [00:01:30] disruption.

In both business and industries, Carol's launched two startups, operated them and then sold them, then turned her attention to teaching and educating [00:01:40] businesses and its leaders globally. She brings a wealth of experience, knowledge and strong opinions about the true value of. She argues. It's [00:01:50] really not that valuable, which I'll be honest, sparked an interesting, and at times impassioned conversation that challenges some of our most deeply held beliefs [00:02:00] in the nearly 100 podcasts that I've recorded.

This one definitely stands out and I hope you enjoy it. And now I bring you Carol Sanford.[00:02:10]

[00:02:20] [00:02:30] [00:02:40] [00:02:50] Carol Sanford. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. We had a brief one just before I hit the record button and I just could [00:03:00] not wait another second. How are you doing. I'm great, man. Thank you for having me join you. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. It's going to be a great conversation and, and I'll be honest, [00:03:10] Carolyn, what stood out for me right off the bat?

Um, you have written five books, um, including one called no more feedback. And I want to get into that before I get too excited and [00:03:20] skipped the normal course of action here, perhaps for those of us who don't know Carol Sanford, maybe walk us through your background, your experiences, and what brought you to the.

Well, I'm an old lady, [00:03:30] so let's do a short version. I, uh, really work on helping, uh, corporations and individuals learn more about how [00:03:40] consciousness can give them more guidance in their life, more ability and make a difference to bring meaning and to make life work generally. And I do that from an [00:03:50] education platform, not a consulting or coaching.

I do that through my own podcasts. Have three of them are new, uh, Vimeo, our YouTube [00:04:00] channel coming online. As you pointed out five existing books, a new one coming. So I like to be on multiple platforms to have that conversation. That's great. [00:04:10] And obviously having multiple platforms gives your audience multiple different opportunities to connect with you in the way that makes the most amount of sense.

I'm curious, what drew you [00:04:20] to wanting to become an author and a writer and you know, of all the paths you could have chosen for your life? It seems like that one is really resonate. Well, it's kind of a means, not an end. And I did [00:04:30] not want to write, uh, I was never good at English, but my clients, uh, uh, who were in big corporations, I kept saying, would [00:04:40] you talk to the CEO and that CEO?

And they'd say, Carol, write down our stories. We will tell them it's true. We will sign on [00:04:50] testimonies forward to your book, please. To make it more public. So I did the first one and then the second one came about because I had small companies [00:05:00] saying, well, that's all great for big companies, but what about us entrepreneurs?

[00:05:04] Guest 1: So I wrote one for the responsible, uh, entrepreneur after responsible business. [00:05:10] And then people said, well, you need, we need to know how you do that. And so I wrote a book called the rigidity business, cause now the publisher would, let me use the word [00:05:20] regenerative. Which I've used for 45 years. And then the next one people said, well, wait, you got all of these toxic practices in there.

What do we [00:05:30] do instead? And so I wrote no more feedback and I'm writing a few more to overcome the toxic practices and the suddenly I needed one for individuals. [00:05:40] So I never meant to be a writer. And I'm actually not. I'm an author and I have a sneaky, tricky, really brilliant way of getting books. Right.

[00:05:49] Matt: Okay, well, now I have to know [00:05:50] that we'll talk about that offline, because as somebody who has been saying, I shouldn't write a book for probably five years now, Carol, I just, one of those things, I'm sure you can appreciate. [00:06:00] I never seem to find the time to sit down and put my thoughts together. So if you've got hacks, we need to kind of think about this offline.

[00:06:07] Guest 1: So no one else can use. So when I use one of my. [00:06:10] I agree. So let me dictate. And he's a great editor. And so he edits as we go, but he won't do it for anybody else, but find someone who can do that. [00:06:20] So I were barely wrote the book. I had all outline everything in my Ana talked it and he typed. It's not ghost writing the [00:06:30] echoes.

It's all my thinking renewed. Go do that mat. Okay.

[00:06:34] Matt: I'm going to let anyone listen to this podcast. If you would love to listen to me, read out loud and [00:06:40] write it out for me. Please get in touch with me, uh, across all the social media channels. Um, I love the idea though, and I've certainly applied some of that Carol.

I mean, I've done voice notes to myself and [00:06:50] then I've transcripted those voice notes and done that for. Previous passengers for articles. Um, I love, you know, there's, there's, uh, I was talking to somebody yesterday. Um, it was a tech entrepreneur and in the [00:07:00] business that they work, they are a big believer in video messages.

So, um, they S rather than sending texts back and forth, they send videos back and forth, which I wanted to poke at in product, [00:07:10] because I'll be honest. I've been in the business world now for over 20 years. And certainly video messages back and forth were not something that existed when I began in the [00:07:20] corporate climb.

Um, that being said, there's science behind the fact that video communication allows us to more efficiently, both from the descender, but also from the receiver. [00:07:30] Communicate information. So I'm not surprised to hear that you found a really good hack around, you know, if you will, um, transcribing, um, your words, uh, because that would be [00:07:40] so much more effective than you writing them down, send them to an editor who edits them in texts, sends them back to you for revisions back to the editor.

Like that's, uh, that's what takes so long when you're [00:07:50] writing books, it's just, you know, beyond just the core brainstorming it's the back and forth, back and forth back.

[00:07:54] Guest 1: And. And my books are so easy to read. They're all best [00:08:00] sellers. And that's because if you do what you're good at and you engage others, and I did pay people to help me.

So you're gonna have to pay Matt. Uh, [00:08:10] it makes it a better experience for everyone in the same way you just described with.

[00:08:15] Matt: Yeah, no, totally. Right. And, and you, of course, you're gonna pay people. You want to pay people and respect their [00:08:20] time and all that good stuff. I'm curious, Carol. I mean, one of the reasons why I reached out and wanted to connect was, you know, the book, no more feedback.

And as somebody who spent [00:08:30] close to 20 years in the HR profession, Designing performance management programs, thinking about coaching, thinking about mentorship, all of those various vehicles are [00:08:40] predicated on the assumption that one feedback is being provided. And two that it's well-received first off.

Let me talk to me a bit about no more feedback. What [00:08:50] was the impetus for the book and what were some of the things that you learned along the way? And.

[00:08:54] Guest 1: Well, I learned a lot of what I knew about no more feedback from my doctor [00:09:00] research because I personally, and I'm going to want to hear your opinion on this, how effective you thought feedback was for you personally?

What I [00:09:10] discovered was that it promotes all the worst things you can possibly imagine. Uh, and I did it by, uh, actual research in the field with kids. When [00:09:20] you gave them feedback, versus you asked them what they thought, what they saw, how they could get better and how much faster they grew and how much more present they were.[00:09:30]

So then I started doing it with clients inside companies and the process unfolded or retired. Where I was able to articulate a [00:09:40] series of downsides. So like the majority of feedback belongs to the person giving it, not the words from receiving it. Big article in [00:09:50] psychology today that showed that, uh, the second thing was it shut down.

People's ability to see themselves. And to trust their own lived experience, [00:10:00] which meant they no longer actually can image how to make something happen.

But if instead you gave them the capacity to see for themselves, with the [00:10:10] implications, the effect of where things were going, they had a very different experience.

[00:10:15] Guest 1: It also caused him to, uh, [00:10:20] Projections on to other people that were damaging to others. And then therefore they become a source of breaking down the working of the organization.

[00:10:30] So those were three of the things I've found along the way. I am curious though, about in your role, what was your own experience of how effective feedback was [00:10:40] with you?

[00:10:41] Matt: Yeah, it's a good question. I would say it evolves over time, Carol, to be honest, uh, early in my career, I really craved feedback of all kinds [00:10:50] and to the point where I was probably a bit of noxious about it, asking my coaches and my mentors and my peers and my clients, like, how am I doing? Um, I've always felt a bit of, I'm sure people can [00:11:00] identify with this a bit of imposter syndrome.

And I always felt like the roles that I was in, I was growing into as. As soon as them. So it was very thoughtful about trying to collect as much [00:11:10] feedback as possible from people on how to do that. What I, what, what I didn't realize at the time, Carol, but I've since realized, is that how important just asking for help is in relationship building.

Um, and I [00:11:20] now use that much more effectively in a number of contexts, maybe, maybe in some cases where I don't even need to know a specific answer to a question, but just the very act of going to somebody and saying, Hey, I'd love to [00:11:30] have your help on. Is a really great way to break ice and to build relationships.

So that's evolved and, and I've so feedback from me has taken on a different purpose as I've matured [00:11:40] in my own career.

My own leadership style. But my approach to giving it probably hasn't changed that much. I've I, I'm the kind of person Carol, but I love direct feedback. I don't take [00:11:50] feedback terribly personally.

[00:11:51] Matt: So from that perspective, I try and give that same experience with people that I work with. Um, but it sounds like your research indicates that people may not [00:12:00] always be open to getting feedback. I may not be the most effective way and achieving a different.

[00:12:04] Guest 1: No, the actual opposite is true. Everybody wants feedback, but it's based on what you just [00:12:10] demonstrated, which is because they don't trust their own opinion.

And because we're raised that way with parents with, uh, education. Where we don't do. So for example, I [00:12:20] taught my children from our really young age to never asked me how they were doing. They can ask me for help. That's a whole different thing than feedback. Feedback means. I [00:12:30] see you better than you see you, and I know what you should do about it.

And I'm going to say it is nice way. It's again, it hope. So that's what I mean by [00:12:40] feedback what's better to do is what I did with these little nine year old boys. And my first research and with my own kids is I had them set a [00:12:50] goal or a target or something they wanted to achieve. And then I asked him how they were doing and how were they could do it better.

But I also asked him, what did you notice [00:13:00] about yourself? What'd you notice about when you got nervous? What'd you notice about when you were afraid? Once you noticed about when you started to make up a story? So that you'd feel okay. [00:13:10] And I never gave them my answers to those questions and my kids. By the time we were six years old, didn't have problem with peer pressure.

They didn't have the problem. [00:13:20] With, uh, trying to figure out what others thought about them. And there were not lying in order to make me think of certain thing. So what I know is if [00:13:30] you start from a very young age, people learn not to ask. Now there are ways inside businesses, but that's another subject.

Or you can set up how teams are [00:13:40] working to have conversations that move the whole.

[00:13:44] Matt: Yeah, I love that. I love the fact that it's a shared responsibility around moving the whole forward. It's just, I think it's a [00:13:50] great microcosm for what's happening right now. And, you know, Carol, obviously we we've all been through a shared experience over the last 18 months to two years.

, and of course, [00:14:00] different people have experienced those last two. Differently, depending on your circumstances and level of privilege and where you're located and all those various, like the career path that you've chosen [00:14:10] among other variables, I'm curious, has the last two years in any way shaped or reshaped or refined how you view the idea of feedback, as it given [00:14:20] you pause in terms of some of your earlier thoughts and methods.

[00:14:23] Guest 1: No, it keeps going. I keep doing the research and everything I do chose that it comes off the world of machines,[00:14:30] that what you want to do is build capacity for individual consciousness, not get better at doing feedback. So the story about how I came into grids, you were a [00:14:40] human resource professional at one point, this will be intriguing to you. That where feedback came from was when the schools of psychology. Uh, [00:14:50] fifties and sixties wanting to be seen as a science, they joined some of the call, the Macy conference in, uh, there was sponsored by Macy's company, [00:15:00] looking at how we could use science to improve lives.

When the presentations are on artificial intelligence, which are also connected [00:15:10] to, , we're demonstrating, uh, how it is that it's very scientific. You can, uh, use feedback in a [00:15:20] machine. They help control what people can see, what they can do. The psychologist jumped on the idea of feedback and incorporate it into their [00:15:30] practice.

It came off the idea of machines. Feedback means a governor is on something. They, you need to just stop it overflow, for [00:15:40] example, hot oil or something. The feedback mechanism is to shut something down that metaphor should tell us everything we need to know about not [00:15:50] shutting people down, because it does, even if you can't tell it.

, but the psychologist in adopting it started teaching it never looking or studying for [00:16:00] probably 40 years effect and why there are so much better, unbelievably, better methods that fit more, how humans work, they don't [00:16:10] shut. They don't do well by being shut down. In fact, they go underground with the shutdown is what I say.

Start ad

[00:16:20] Hey everyone. It's Matt here, and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I want to make you aware of our latest creative project, HR [00:16:30] in VR, every Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands [00:16:40] and industry thought leaders to discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual rail.

And their impact on future workplaces in partnership [00:16:50] with Microsoft we're broadcasting each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. Joining is easy for [00:17:00] LinkedIn users. Simply follow my account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn lives.

[00:17:10] Or for a truly immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, PC or [00:17:20] VR headset, and join us live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others [00:17:30] from the comfort of your own home. This is the future folks.

And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for HR and VR, [00:17:40] along with all other relevant information in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.

End ad

[00:17:49] Guest 1: [00:17:50] So I have not. We thought it except to do bill more vigorous about giving people, their attorneys. I created a whole podcast [00:18:00] around it called business second opinion where I have people send me something, uh, an article or a Harvard business review. And I give a second opinion. [00:18:10] 90% of them are on HR practices.

Then. Are things that people didn't feel good about didn't work for them or wonder what to do [00:18:20] instead. So that's what I have done with all the energy of probably the last five years.

[00:18:26] Matt: So, what was name of the podcast again?

[00:18:29] Guest 1: Business [00:18:30] second opinion is mine. It's what I produce in them. And it's what we call the on-air talent like you.

[00:18:38] Matt: Well, clearly talent of [00:18:40] course clearly tested. And so folks check that out. I'm super curious shift that'll after this podcast, because you know, to your point, Carol, I mean, as an HR [00:18:50] practitioner, I've always felt a degree of confidence in knowing that I'm going to have job security, the rest of my life. To your point.

Um, I'm now second guessing whether or [00:19:00] not the while good intentioned, if my past approaches around the both soliciting and also providing feedback are really in the best interest of the broader picture. And I'm going to definitely [00:19:10] check those cases out. maybe to bring it to life a little bit. Can we use a very simple example and maybe talk that through.

[00:19:17] Guest 1: Sure.

[00:19:18] Matt: Okay. So let's [00:19:20] just say, for example, we have an employee, let's just say it's me. Cause it's probably me in lot of cases, I'm late for things. So I'm, I'm consistently 10 minutes late for every meeting, including [00:19:30] the important meetings with clients or with team members. And, you know, my, my gut instinct would say, okay, We need to bring that in for a conversation.

We [00:19:40] need to sit them down and have a chat and explain to him that, you know, one we've noticed the tardiness to inquire about what could be some of the root causes [00:19:50] for tardiness. Cause there could be some mitigating factors, maybe there's traffic issues. Maybe there's some things at home that are happening.

Maybe it's a bus schedule misalignment, but we dig into root causes and then [00:20:00] presuming that there are. Mitigating root causes. Uh, we would then have a conversation around help helping them, helping me understand the consequences of my action relative to the impact [00:20:10] on others. And then I would ask for a commitment from me to try and be more on time going forward.

How does that approach fit [00:20:20] into what you have found in terms of research and how would you change it? If.

[00:20:24] Guest 1: So you have the wrong culture and the wrong work design, if that's the level and the timing, which you're [00:20:30] working on it, I wouldn't, I would, I would never start there. What I do is redesign work system.

So they're like, I may give you the example of my children, again, [00:20:40] were starting where there were six years old. I asked him to pick something. They really wanted to make work better for the family, knowing that they would make a mess of it at the beginning, [00:20:50] but the whole process of creating a culture where every person contributes and works on themselves, then what it is what's called.

Then, what we [00:21:00] do is I start talking with them about, well, how are you going to try that out? What's your plan going to be? Because I have to build a capability. What you did is did a behavioral [00:21:10] intervention, behavioral interventions are based on study of rats. That if you get the right incentives, rewards the right way of doing it, you can change them.

I [00:21:20] don't believe in behavioral because I believe we are not rats and let you manage dreads. Of course. But what I do with my kids is we laid out of how they were going to do it. They [00:21:30] designed it. I might've said, well, would you try this? Would you try that? But none of it was prescriptive or feedback.

They would lay out a plan every Sunday night. [00:21:40] And by the way, I do this on a large scale with corporations, but, it'll say it'll sound differently. We sat on Sunday night. I said, well, how did your plan work that you laid out for [00:21:50] this week? And how is he getting toward the larger thing you wanted to do?

And how do you think it's affecting the family? It look at that set of questions. I'm teaching [00:22:00] people to be reflective of their own ability to leave and change something. And then we would fail. What are you going to do next week? But I always would ask them about [00:22:10] themselves. How are you feeling about doing this?

And even a six year old can say, well, I'm worried you're going to be mad. And I'd say, why in the world would you worry about that? Well, I don't know. [00:22:20] It feels like I'm doing it wrong. As I said, are you mad at you? So all of it, I'm going back into teaching the how to see themselves. Then along the way I [00:22:30] say, what do you think is getting in your way, this kind of a pattern that you need to work on?

So in the case of your person, if my kids said it, they might say, well, I'm always late. I come in and [00:22:40] running at the last minute to do it. Oh, okay. Well, how could you work on that? So they design a plan. They'd take off workout a Sunday night. How did your [00:22:50] plan to not always be doing last minute work? Well, I wasn't very good.

Ah, so you weren't a happy NIO? Not yet. Well, what would you do next week with [00:23:00] seven aims? So I'll escalate the level capability, not the level of intervention as I work, that I think I'm trying to do in the [00:23:10] child terms, because what I do in a company is so much more complex. They get. But the principle is the same.

It's about capability not be it.[00:23:20] Why do you think of that?

[00:23:22] Matt: Yeah. I love that. I think that's a really nice repositioning of a traditional approach to problems. And I think [00:23:30] you're right. I think the behavioral approach that a lot of people employ does set a different tone for the relationship, which is really hard to [00:23:40] repair.

And the one thing that always struck with that environment is that intervention that I kind of played out for you is obviously a last case type of an intervention. But it comes with some [00:23:50] consequences in terms of the social currency that you have to expend to do that. And I like your approach better because it puts the, the empowers the individual much [00:24:00] more.

Um, and it feels a lot less dictatorial and much more collaborative, ultimately what we want to get to.

[00:24:07] Guest 1: And enables not empowers [00:24:10] enables is a core here. There is some empowerment, but enablement means you build capability. It doesn't do you any good to have to? I don't start with a problem [00:24:20] ever. I never have the thought about start with their life.

What that tells me immediately is we've got a bad cultural design, but we have no infrastructure for developing. [00:24:30] So one, not only was my kids, was I doing something different with your focus on the moment, but I hadn't played as a whole infrastructure about how [00:24:40] you raise children and what my role is. And I had Sunday night meetings and if in between where the kids came to me and Matt was my son took on feeding us.[00:24:50]

When he was nine and we never starved to death, but I didn't say, well, let me take the bag and you pick something easier. My ambulance structure was my whole family. And my [00:25:00] parenting is about building capability of people to be self-determining and self contributing to a larger whole, and that we're building capability for the [00:25:10] do that.

And they find things that are in their way. I don't find problems they have with serving the family.

[00:25:17] Matt: , as you look at the future, Carol, I'm just curious,[00:25:20] we are in the hopefully live later stages of this pet worldwide pandemic. Um, as we record this, the Delta variant is moving throughout the world.

[00:25:30] Having said that vaccination rates are also rising and a lot of developed countries. And, and while behind less developed countries are also being into vaccinated population. I'm curious [00:25:40] for you. How do you see the next few years for yourself? You know, how do you see that affecting both professionally, but also personally, do you, you know, have you given any thought to what the [00:25:50] next few years might be?

[00:25:51] Guest 1: Well, yeah, cause I'm an old lady. So you do that. Uh, but not in terms of those things, they're just stuck. Pandemic is stuff I would look at [00:26:00] what capability is missing that as people not to be able to see the systemic effect. So I go back more to teaching people about how to see their [00:26:10] effects in the world and how to see their own behavior.

To be more discerning. And so I'm about to start a YouTube channel because I believe there, [00:26:20] uh, my young millennials, my members of my commuters are increasingly young, so I'm filled with 20 and 30, 30. For up to 40 years [00:26:30] old. And I feel like that what people need is so different with them, what's in the education system and in the parenting system and in the work [00:26:40] system.

And so I'm creating a parallel education, bad that I'm. Creating a number of platforms and membership programs. So people come inside and they [00:26:50] learn a very different way to structure it. So we don't have a next feminine dynamic. We can actually deal with climate change because I don't think of who work on those to directly trying [00:27:00] to change people's minds.

We do anything but make things worse. And so my whole life is about educating people to see themselves. [00:27:10] Bringing their own conscious of something in changing how they discern and decide what to take on in the world.

[00:27:16] Matt: Well, I love that one topic that we [00:27:20] discussed off air that I thought was really important to bring on air.

Was we, you asked me about my approach to the podcast and my approach to business. And I mentioned to you that one of the things we're [00:27:30] trying to do here, I'm thinking inside the boxes, we try to make the complex. We try and take really complex concepts and distill them down to digestible pieces that people can either [00:27:40] one ingest them, but also applied some of the learnings in their lives.

And you said you like that, but actually your methodology is you're looking to get, make the complex essential. [00:27:50] Maybe talk a bit about.

[00:27:51] Guest 1: Yeah, everything you just said is part of the problem. When we break things into pieces, we no longer can see the hole and we don't build [00:28:00] the capability to see the dynamics, which is what makes it complex.

And so we try and dumb things down to the current mind we've got. Then we moved the subject. [00:28:10] Matter of the conversations down. To the current way we can deal with stuff, which is one or two parts of something very complex. I teach people how to see the [00:28:20] heart of something. So when you said to me, what I do with this, a person who is late all the time, you're dealing with fragment something, people have simplified it, and they'll [00:28:30] give you a quote hack, which my new TV show is a rigidity of life hacks, which are more out of a hack from a systems level.

[00:28:38] Guest 1: If we can't move [00:28:40] people's capability to see the dynamics and the complexity, and then zero in, whereas not the part that I want to understand. Well, what [00:28:50] intervene. It's like acupuncture. If you've ever action puncture, you can work on one point with one or two needles and you can get the whole system to [00:29:00] reset.

That is what I mean by central it's essence thinking. Rather than fragmented and then reorganization thing.

[00:29:09] Matt: That makes a [00:29:10] ton of sense. And I, I love podcast guests that make me think about the way things are done differently. And I want to thank you, Carol, for just bringing a new [00:29:20] concept and several new concepts to the discussion, um, because it's causing me to take a step back and reflect upon my world view and how I approach previous challenges [00:29:30] and how I'm going to approach future challenges.

, while I don't want to ask you to distill. Everything that you've done down to, you know, one key point. I, I may I'll ask the [00:29:40] question a different way, which is what is one challenge that you see coming up over and over again, that people make the simple, simple mistake or a simple, with a simple switch or a [00:29:50] simple re refocusing.

We can be more effective with the people in our lives. So what's one thing that you give us, maybe that tip or.

[00:29:58] Guest 1: Just stop [00:30:00] asking that question and let me tell you why, uh, everybody wants a one thing and it's for a fragment. Give me one thing I can do. So I'm going to give you one thing. Go [00:30:10] build the mind that asks questions about what is the level.

Uh, rethinking, we need to do starting in a different place. Like don't ask me what you should do tomorrow. [00:30:20] Don't ask me for one thing you can go do, because it means you're asking me to move. What would really work for you? What would make your mind amazing? Make you a great [00:30:30] change maker down to something you can do, but it doesn't have much meaning.

So. Don't look for takeaways. Look for the idea of where can I get [00:30:40] curious and build more capability, and then we can all work on what makes the world.

[00:30:45] Matt: I absolutely love that. Carol, thank you so much for the conversation today. [00:30:50] Folks, if you're interested in learning more about Carol I'll list, all of her details in the comments section of the podcast, also link several copies of her books in there as well.

Check those things out. [00:31:00] Carol, I've taken away a ton from this conversation. Thank you so, so much sincerely for your insights, your perspective, your candor, and I just want to wish you really well in the future. And hopefully. [00:31:10] Thank you, man. I really enjoyed it. You're a great, great person to play with ideas with.

Well, yeah, I appreciate that is very much. And, uh, [00:31:20] we'll talk again real soon. All right.