How to Create More Playful Workplaces - Kirsten Anderson

Kirsten Anderson is the Vancouver, Canada-based Founder of Integrate Play, a boutique training corporation that creates bespoke events and learning experiences to drive innovation, team-building and alignment. Items that couldn’t be more important today as organization reimagine their workplaces. 

I’ve known Kirsten for a few years now. We’ve bumped into each other at local Vancouver events, And so it was easy to pick up our ongoing chat about discuss how best to humanize today’s hybrid workplaces. Kirsten shares some of her past experiences; insights on what is working. 

As I’m want to do, I poked at the financial business case for play - spoiler alert - its strong. And together we unearthed some tangible tips any leader can deploy today. It’s one topic of many that we dig into over our nearly hour-long chat. And I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Kirsten Anderson

After 25 years as an entrepreneur in the toy industry, and over a decade as the play expert on Global TV, Kirsten sold the award winning “Best Toy Store in Canada” to bridge her expertise in business leadership and the bottom-line benefits of play for ALL ages, especially in the workplace. 

Though some call her a Playologist, she’s actually an International keynote speaker on the power of playfulness to improve innovation, wellness, culture, and team dynamics.

Kirsten is the founder of Integrate Play Solutions; a boutique training corporation working with organizational teams in diverse industries, remotely and in-person, to help solve their messiest challenges using playful methods - the favourite being LEGO® Serious Play®. Integrate Play Solutions collaborates with playful partners and clients globally to create better places to work while increasing creativity and resilience - brick by brick.

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Thinking Inside the Box

Constraints drive innovation. Each week we’ll tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture.

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Guest 1: [00:00:00] So, how are we approaching problems? How are we approaching the way we communicate? So there's [00:00:10] kind of those two different aspects to playfulness, playfulness as an activity, as something we do together to bond us and bring us together and have more fun and enjoy work, [00:00:20] and then playfulness the mindset, how we think, how we help

[00:00:40] [00:00:30] Matt: [00:00:49] constraints. [00:00:50] Drive innovation. Hey everyone. It's Matt here for another episode of thinking inside the box, a show where we discuss complex issues related to work and culture. [00:01:00] If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at bento, hr.com, wherever you find your favorite podcasts by searching, thinking inside the box.

[00:01:10] And now in virtual reality, each Thursday at 5:00 PM Pacific standard time in Altspace. In today's episode, I chat with Kiersten [00:01:20] Anderson, the Vancouver, Canada based founder of integrate play a boutique train corporation that creates bespoke events and learning experiences to drive innovation [00:01:30] team building and ultimately alignment items that just simply couldn't be more important than they are today.

And I've known Kiersten for a few years. Now [00:01:40] we bumped into each other at a number of local Vancouver events. And so it was easy to pick right up. And have our ongoing chat about all [00:01:50] things, organizational culture, and how to best humanize the workplace along the way Kiersten shares some of her experiences of some of the science and her [00:02:00] insights on what's working in this space and how we can use play to drive.

As I'm wanting to do, I did poke at the financial business case for play spoiler [00:02:10] alert, it's positive. And along the way, we unearth some tangible tips on what leaders can do to deploy, play in service, to advancing their leadership, [00:02:20] their team, or ultimately their organizational culture. We had a really great conversation as always, and I hope you enjoy it.

So without further ado, Kiersten Anderson. [00:02:30] Hello Kiersten. We've had a number of offline conversations and I am super excited to have one with you finally, here on the podcast. How are you? 

Guest 1: [00:02:39] I'm doing [00:02:40] fabulous. 

Matt: [00:02:40] How are you doing? You had some music in the background too. You were playing a bit of a soundtrack for this podcast.

Can you tell the audience a bit about that? Oh, 

Guest 1: [00:02:49] that's [00:02:50] true. That's true. You caught me with my 80 soundtrack. Uh, I always play some dance music before I do an interview. Before I do a workshop before I [00:03:00] present on stage, just to pump up the dopamine, the oxytocin, the serotonin, the endorphins, get my daily dose.

It really energizes me. And it [00:03:10] actually is something I use between meetings too, like between zoom meetings, just to up the energy and keep me going through a long day of, uh, online meetings. 

Matt: [00:03:19] And when I think [00:03:20] about Kiersten Anderson, I think about the intersection of. And behavioral psychology and fun. And it's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you [00:03:30] on today's conversation.

And before we get into the topics though, I think maybe it's a great place to start a bit about who Kiersten is, what you're all about. And, uh, maybe what brought you to this point? Yeah. Well, it's 

[00:03:40] Guest 1: [00:03:39] interesting. You should bring up those two, uh, psychology and business and fun because I, I do feel I've blended.

My dad's is an organizational level. Uh, [00:03:50] psychologist. And my mom was a preschool teacher owned her own preschool, and then she went on to open her own toy store and she was an advertising. So [00:04:00] fun was definitely a part of my childhood. And I feel like I've kind of blended the two, the two worlds, my mom and my dad into my current work into a, into a [00:04:10] fascinating, uh, cocktail has it worked 

Matt: [00:04:12] and you blend that cocktail and you serve it up to clients all around the world and you do so.

And, and, and [00:04:20] let's be honest, you been doing this pre pandemic, but at a time right now where organizations are at an inflection point, you're really on a mission to introduce more fun [00:04:30] in terms of organizational culture, uh, and to do so for a number of reasons. There's of course the, you know, the financial reasons, the scientific reasons, but also.

Just the right [00:04:40] thing to do in terms of organizational culture, I'd love to hear a bit more about your practice and how you apply that thinking in supporting origins. 

Guest 1: [00:04:48] Yeah. It's, uh, it's a [00:04:50] multifaceted approach, but it is primarily been through training and workshops and there's a bit of one-to-one [00:05:00] coaching as well, or team coaching, but that.

It does apply to so many different aspects of the business. You, you know, you mentioned that mission [00:05:10] and the mission is yes, around fun and play and levity and, you know, having a more human workplace, but it really trickles into [00:05:20] every aspect of the business, you know, from. The retention to the improved health, increasing their sales of a sales team.

[00:05:30] There were they're working through problem solving collaboration, communication, uh, team cohesion is probably one of the biggest ones we work through and [00:05:40] pre pandemic. We were doing a lot of creativity and innovation work. That that is coming back as well. 

Matt: [00:05:47] Well, the fact that it's so multifaceted, I think it's [00:05:50] a opportunity to love organizations can identify with.

And certainly the listeners to this podcast will identify that unfortunately, sometimes work isn't. Uh, [00:06:00] long hours, a lot of pressure, uh, sometimes lack of resources and sometimes it can be hard to see the fun in what we're [00:06:10] doing and the purpose that we're connecting to. And it sounds like your approach is really trying to.

Reinforce how fun and how, um, camaraderie and culture [00:06:20] innovation should be part of an organizational system. And I'm curious as you, you know, perhaps engage with a new client or enter into a new opportunity, how do you go about [00:06:30] assessing. An organization's culture. What are some of the things that you're looking for?

What are some of the indicators that you're perhaps trying to suss out as you're considering a path [00:06:40] towards making in that organization? 

Guest 1: [00:06:41] Well, one term you've probably heard before is greenwashing. Yeah. There is a term that, um, my friend Mathias [00:06:50] uses, which is play washing, which is when a company puts out there that they are a playful or fun place to work with ping pong tables and [00:07:00] foosball tables in the lobby.

And this is supposed to lure people in to come and work for them as being a playful culture, but really it's a [00:07:10] burnout culture. And so what I'm looking for are the indicators that people are valued. That people are not only encouraged to actually [00:07:20] play for there, to take those breaks, to boost their performance and boost their concentration and productivity, but also not just [00:07:30] play as a, an activity or a break, but also a playful mindset.

So, how are we approaching problems? How are we approaching the way we communicate? So there's [00:07:40] kind of those two different aspects to playfulness, playfulness as an activity, as something we do together to bond us and bring us together and have more fun and enjoy [00:07:50] work, and then playfulness the mindset, how we think, how we, how we operate as a 

Matt: [00:07:54] process.

And I'd love to dig into the ladder. There's a misnomer or perhaps a [00:08:00] misunderstanding or a lack of understanding around the mindset. And when we think about apply more of a playful mindset to, to your point problem [00:08:10] solving to innovation, what are some of the differences between. A more playful mindset and let's just for the sake of argument, call it a more traditional mindset to problem solving, [00:08:20] then maybe more logical in nature.

Guest 1: [00:08:22] Yeah. I hope it's not traditional. I'm hoping we smashed that tradition and it's, um, you know, it's a, it's a mindset of the past, you [00:08:30] know, or Puritan mindset or. A factory mindset where it is really about, um, all about, you know, getting the [00:08:40] widget out and not that human side of things. Um, but the, the playful mindset, you know, there's, I've kind of developed a few pillars to [00:08:50] that and.

One of the ones that you can think of is just think back to your own childhood, like the way most children are. And one of the first trades you may think of is [00:09:00] curiosity, that child that asks why. And then when you think about how you were as a child being curious about everything, and then you apply that to your every day as [00:09:10] an adult, how much better your work would be your relationships, how you can, um, create better feedback sessions in a, in an evaluation you can [00:09:20] have.

Um, leadership conversations. So curiosity is a big one. And then even as a child, you know, using your creativity and your imagination [00:09:30] to do problem solving your adaptability and your flexibility to change in a moment. Uh, to take risks, you know, like on the [00:09:40] playground, like you would just keep, you know, trying those, that playground equipment and you wouldn't worry if you fell down, you wouldn't get embarrassed by that.

So those that there's so [00:09:50] much, there's so much in there, um, you know, being yourself when you're a kid, you know, not worrying about, you know, the judgment of others. So taking those traits of [00:10:00] childhood that we kind of left behind as we started adulting and bringing those into. And to being a, you know, a professional on [00:10:10] and how those can help us.

Matt: [00:10:11] Now. It's funny. I mean, I spent a lot of years. I know you did in the corporate world and working with corporate organizations. And I, I think about the transition that we [00:10:20] all inevitably make from childhood into adult hood and you're right. We, we start to adopt. Societal norms, certain rituals, and you get to an [00:10:30] organizational culture.

And we talk about things like fit and cultural alignment, which are really fancy buzz words for a lot of cases about, you know, you know, if some cases it can be group think in some cases they can be, [00:10:40] um, not being as curious as you perhaps once were worrying about what people think about you, things that in a child mindset, we just, we don't have a sense [00:10:50] of that level of comparison.

There isn't that type of, um, thinking that's applied to. Children in social situations. So I think it's, it's interesting. We're [00:11:00] almost asking ourselves to be more vulnerable, be more transparent, be more collaborative, which has a lot of benefits in a lot of [00:11:10] different ways. And it's, I, you know, I'm, as you're talking, I'm just lamenting some of the things that we ultimately adopt as working professionals.

Which for no other reason, then [00:11:20] it's just, what's acceptable and I'm using air quotes here versus what's actually delivering a tangible benefit. And in some cases it's limiting the progress [00:11:30] or limiting the innovation or limiting the engagement that occurs inside of an organization. Uh, it's it's an area that I think that as organizations go forward, we're going to really have.

Look [00:11:40] at these problems differently. And I think Kiersten in particular, I'm looking at organizations. Now, many of them are either in a state of hybrid work or moving to more of a hybrid work culture. And [00:11:50] I'm, I'm concerned frankly, about organization's ability to translate culture to a hybrid work setting when let's be honest.

And a lot of cases, organizations pre pandemic had a hard time [00:12:00] building culture, even in a physical work setting. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Some of your principles can translate into a digital modality or into a hybrid modality and how we [00:12:10] can bring along some of those best practices.

Guest 1: [00:12:12] Yeah. And I exactly, I mean, we are looking at this, you know, hybrid or co-locating situation and, [00:12:20] uh, Liz and Molly recently, um, surveyed 1500 people and found that 84% were experiencing extreme uncertainty. So that [00:12:30] extreme uncertainty. Requires a playful mindset to, to deal with, uh, cope with that type of level of [00:12:40] stress.

As, as we're dealing with a new future such, you know, such an uncertain future of what work will look like and the exhaustion that goes with it, or as Adam Grant says, the [00:12:50] languishing feel that a lot of people are experiencing. So how are organizations taking care of their people? One of the [00:13:00] tactical things is creating those breaks in between zoom meetings for those dance breaks.

Like I mentioned, so, you know, scheduling that boasts even five minutes in [00:13:10] between zoom meetings and then that taking that time in the beginning of meetings to connect, to have those personal conversations, to check in, [00:13:20] to take each other's temperature. To play something that is interactive to ensure that your learning and development is the experiential.

That it's [00:13:30] not death by PowerPoint that it's embodied. And, you know, people can potentially read the data that they need. They don't need to necessarily be reading it all [00:13:40] together, you know, to have those there, like there's nothing new created without play. So we need to have those ideation sessions, those brainstorming sessions of how we're going [00:13:50] to recreate.

You know, using playful methods. When we think about science or, um, any field where new things have been [00:14:00] created, we're playing with possibilities, we're experimenting, we're trying new things. So all of that takes a, a playful mind. It really 

Matt: [00:14:07] does. And it requires us to, if [00:14:10] you will still some of that past thinking in terms of looking at the world through a different lens, when you talked about this earlier, and I think, you know, when people are hearing [00:14:20] our discussion around introducing more play and introducing more curiosity into organizations, there's this voice that pops up in the back of our heads.

I mean, I've been in the HR profession [00:14:30] for close to 20 years and. It would always seem as if every time we introduce or surface a conversation around culture. There's this inevitable question that comes up [00:14:40] in terms of cost. And when you talk to a lot of organizations around culture, they do to your point, default to foosball tables and to beer on [00:14:50] Fridays at four o'clock in the afternoon.

And yet they will. 60 hours a week elsewise. So it's it's window dressing. They really haven't addressed the culture parts of it, but there's this [00:15:00] perception that fun and play has to come at the expense of things like productivity and profitability. You know, what are your thoughts when you get people who ask those types of questions?

Well, I 

Guest 1: [00:15:09] think it's the [00:15:10] direct opposite. I think it's the exact opposite of the, of a cost of productivity. You know, I call it playful pro productivity to sustain [00:15:20] productivity, to have. Stainable level of energy and to be able to maximize your performance and a great example of this is, uh, [00:15:30] it can be found in prime to perform where they talk about motivation.

And the number one motivator for people is, uh, that playful that went when play work [00:15:40] feels like play. And so one of the key pieces is are your people doing the work. That they want to do that. They're best at that. Their strengths, [00:15:50] um, you know, following their strengths, where they're in flow with their work.

And one of the ways to be in flow is to be doing work that you love. Um, [00:16:00] and so that is a part of, you know, matching the right people up to the right role. And of course there's going to be work that you don't like to do as well. And how [00:16:10] do you make that fun for yourself? You know, where I come in with the coaching piece or, you know, working with team leaders of, uh, how do we make work [00:16:20] fun when it's work that we don't want to do.

But when the majority of your work is work, that you love that is. Unbelievable growth factor, uh, for [00:16:30] return on investment. So part of it is, um, hiring the right people and, you know, you can certainly bring fun into your hiring process. So you get that into your [00:16:40] return on your investment right away that you're not having to do retraining.

You're not hiring. Uh, the wrong people, you can bring fun and playfulness and levity into your onboarding [00:16:50] process. So people are feeling welcomed, um, faster and feeling, um, not culture fit, but more belonging because we don't want to go for [00:17:00] fit. It's more. And, and, you know, it carries through, through the whole, uh, leadership through the, through the feedback sessions, you know, creating those closer relationships [00:17:10] with, with connection that can be founded in the trust and psychological safety that comes with a playful foundation.

So it, it really is embedded in [00:17:20] every level of the employee journey. So it's definitely gets its return on investment. And then when you bring it to a, uh, sales, uh, [00:17:30] area or marketing area, we really compound that, uh, throughout the organization, 

Matt: [00:17:35] you set up a number of things there. Really interesting and worth [00:17:40] poking out a bit more.

I think the first one that stood out to me as you were speaking was that most of us like to be around people who we find to be. And whether it [00:17:50] is a customer, whether it is a stakeholder, whether it is another employee or a leader, we like to surround ourselves with fun people. [00:18:00] And to your point, if we're introducing elements of fun and play into our daily organizational culture, and it becomes part of the fabric of our business, it [00:18:10] would stand to reason that you'd have people want to spend more time around each other in a number of different capacities.

And. The way we make people feel is something that's [00:18:20] really hard to measure in dollars and cents, but it shows up in lagging measures like turnover and revenue and customer [00:18:30] retention, um, that perhaps may be harder to connect. But I think your point's well taken that when you. Introducing elements of fun into, [00:18:40] uh, an organization.

You're going to influence a lot of different things simultaneously because you're just going to create an environment that people want to be part of. 

Guest 1: [00:18:47] Exactly. Yeah. It's the emotional [00:18:50] contagion, you know, like we have enough contagion going on in this world right now. We need that positive, um, contagion, the, the, um, the virus of play as at [00:19:00] work.

And, uh, you know, it, when you think about some of the super successful businesses like Virgin and Zappos and Southwest air, [00:19:10] you know, there are a lot of, uh, cultures out there that you can look to that have utilized playfulness within their, um, both external and [00:19:20] internal environment. So, you know, there's soup, lots of success stories out there.

Matt: [00:19:28] Hey everyone. It's Matt here, [00:19:30] and I hope you're enjoying today's discussion before we continue. I wanted to make you aware of our latest creative project, HR in VR, every [00:19:40] Thursday at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time. All connect with technology pioneers, business executives from the world's most iconic brands and industry thought leaders to [00:19:50] discuss the future of immersive technologies like virtual rail.

And their impact on future workplace. In partnership with Microsoft we're broadcasting [00:20:00] each episode on LinkedIn live and in front of a live studio audience in Altspace. Joining is easy for LinkedIn users. Simply follow my [00:20:10] account, Matt in VR and stay tuned Thursdays at 5:00 PM. Pacific standard time for the LinkedIn lives.

Or for a truly [00:20:20] immersive live experience, visit alt vr.com to download Altspace on your Mac, PC or VR headset, and join us [00:20:30] live in our studio audience. There you'll have a chance to ask questions, meet me and our incredible guests and connect with others from the comfort of your own [00:20:40] home. This is the future folks.

And I hope to be part of it. And I'll link the details for HR and VR, along with all other relevant information [00:20:50] in the show notes of this podcast. And now back to our discussion.

Guest 1: [00:20:58] You know, when I [00:21:00] have a session with people too siloed teams that have been brought together, played leg, played with Lego. Um, and when I say play with Lego, it's [00:21:10] people, people think it's, um, not what it is, you know, it's definitely just a tool to move people to, uh, to an object. You know, I ask powerful [00:21:20] questions and they build their models.

And these teams that have come together, perhaps haven't even met, even though they live in the same city, they're on different campuses or different, [00:21:30] um, offices. And they come together and they're like thesis. The first time I had felt like a family. Or like, I want to come to work and see these people, and I've [00:21:40] worked with them for 20 years and they have tears in their eyes.

Like, I just think I have the best job in the world when, when those moments happen and I, and I see people get [00:21:50] emotional afterwards. Um, when they realize what the power of play can do for the relationships. And we spent so much time at work, the relationships we have [00:22:00] are so critical. I mean, that's why people usually leave their work because, because they're having a, not because of the work itself, but because of who they're working with, 

[00:22:10] Matt: [00:22:09] it's spot on.

I mean, studies have shown time and time again, that people don't leave organizations because of the organization and lead because of the leaders and people they work with. And people ultimately stay in organizations because of the [00:22:20] friends. And the social networks that they build inside of organizations.

And it going back to our conversation around the pandemic, it illuminates a significant risk for [00:22:30] organizations going forward, because if we're moving to more of a hybrid work culture, where that, if you will, organic, you know, informal culture is not as easily built, [00:22:40] it would stand to reason that we are going to have more, um, W a more transient workforce because we're not going to be able to rely upon the [00:22:50] infrastructure socially in the workplace to keep people for longer than they want to be.

They're really going to be assessing the organization, the work, the relationship with their manager, much more closely. And you [00:23:00] referenced in your previous, um, comments are really important topic that I think is worth no, again, poking out a bit more, which is the idea of psychological safety and when [00:23:10] you're.

Trying to create a culture of play of fun of innovation, uh, you know, um, of engagement, a big part of all of those elements is [00:23:20] the ability for leaders and the organization. More broadly to create psychological safety, to create a safe space for people to ask questions and challenge the status quo and [00:23:30] be a bit silly and, you know, to have fun and.

Uh, you know, at the same time, I know Kiersten, you, you likely work with leaders that that's just not their experience. I mean, I think [00:23:40] about my experience in the corporate world, I was always trained, especially early in my career to not show myself at work, to not be vulnerable, to, to not [00:23:50] engage in terribly personal conversations, because it would be seen as either unprofessional or be seen as, you know, um, Very difficult to separate personal from work.

And there [00:24:00] was this, this real insistence on creating this almost binary artificiality with leaders, um, that didn't serve us, but it was very much kind of the [00:24:10] management mantra of the generation. Uh, I'm curious how you work with leaders that maybe fit that mold that may have 20 or 25 or 30 years of experience in more [00:24:20] quote unquote traditional organizations, how you try and pull more of the, the.

How you help them create psychological safety within their teams and their organizations [00:24:30] when it may be going up against all their instincts in terms of how they've led for the preceding several decades. Hm. 

Guest 1: [00:24:37] Yeah. There's a lot there. Um, [00:24:40] well, one thing that I do is I'm attracted to companies or teams perhaps more so than the actual company.

[00:24:50] Already ha have that predator predilection to playfulness. So they're already open to the idea of the [00:25:00] benefits of, or the bottom line benefits of playfulness at work. So those would be my natural, easy, easier clients to work with. Obviously, when I do bump up against that. Yeah. [00:25:10] If I've been referred to someone or maybe as a keynote situation where I'm speaking to 1300 people, you know, I do speak to the return on investment right [00:25:20] away, uh, to create that credibility factor of, you know, where it's going to benefit them.

And then how, and then we, you know, we can also talk about. [00:25:30] That, that childhood connection, like we did earlier about, you know, how we felt as a child and, and connecting that to now. And, you know, we don't, we don't have to [00:25:40] operate in the, in the status quo, the way things are. We get to reinvent our, our day, each day.

And. The psychological [00:25:50] safety piece is interesting. I got certified in psychological safety and when I do training on psychological safety, it's not, uh, a PowerPoint presentation, [00:26:00] you know, it's based on actually experiencing what it feels like to be psychologically safe. And, and one of the super powers that I bring to my workshops [00:26:10] is I'm willing to be vulnerable and silly and ridiculous right out the gate, you know, Start off with dancing and not expect everyone else to dance, but we might do.

Okay. We're all [00:26:20] going to do our worst dancing, uh, to start this off, like Elaine from Seinfeld to go back in history and you know, like that just lets people [00:26:30] feel. Like, oh, okay. Like, I, I can be myself. I can, you know, this is my worst dancing. No, one's going to be judging me or we'll do blind drawing, you know, where no one is [00:26:40] expecting a masterpiece.

It's because you have your eyes closed. So these types of activities right out the gates. That psychological safety for it [00:26:50] workshop now to have a sustainable, psychological play, safe team working together, then we get into more like the four stages of psychological [00:27:00] safety learner safety and contributor, safety, challenges, safety, um, inclusion, safety.

So we, you know, discuss all of that and how that looks and how it feels. And so [00:27:10] when it's embodied within a training, You know, I think the people are sold on it and they can see the benefits of learning through, um, playful [00:27:20] methods. 

Matt: [00:27:20] Well, it makes sense because they're having that personal impersonalized internal experience with it, and it's so much easier to cascade that [00:27:30] when you've had that experience for yourself and.

You know, to me, you know, it sounds like your workshops, that the opportunities that you facilitate really definitely balance [00:27:40] the, the rigor and the disciplines again, of behavioral science and organizational behavior. But they also introduce the element of. Have fun and play in [00:27:50] them as a mechanism to keep them engaging and keep them interactive and keep them dynamic.

Uh, which I think is just so key at a time right now [00:28:00] where one of the biggest economies that we we talk about is attention and people have shortened intention spans. And whether it's looking at content on social media, whether it's flicking [00:28:10] through streaming services, people just, they want. To have variety.

They want to have to be entertained. And the days of the. [00:28:20] Traditional learning where it's a lecture and a PowerPoint and six hours of just cycling through slides. Doesn't doesn't work for people and never did, but even less today than it ever [00:28:30] did before. By introducing more dynamic activities within your exercises, I can imagine that it's having a much greater effect, not only on the engagement, but certainly the retention of the.

[00:28:40] And 

Guest 1: [00:28:40] there. Yeah, absolutely. It makes it more sticky. And also people don't have a lot of time to devote to training. And so if we're, you [00:28:50] know, passing, uh, training and to 90 minutes or two hours or a half day, you know, I want that to be as energizing for them as [00:29:00] possible and as connecting as possible, connecting to each other and you know, back to, you know, where people remember how you make them feel, you know, that's exactly right.

You know, [00:29:10] comes out of it like that. They, they feel good that they feel energized and they can take that into their work and, you know, neuroscience and data. I can send [00:29:20] that to them in a document afterwards. Like, do we really need to be sitting together reading, reading data? I'd rather have a meaningful conversation with people [00:29:30] and dialogue back and forth.

And then later you. You know the book where you can read the article or whatever. Um, the reading piece is [00:29:40] with, with the background, but let's, let's feel what this feels like together and then talk about it. And how does this apply to our work and what, and what actions do we want to take next, 

[00:29:50] Matt: [00:29:50] which is a great segue for my next question.

I'm sure the folks that are listening to this, um, were with you. We, we all want more creative and playful and innovative and fun [00:30:00] cultures. Where do we start? So if we're an organization that is looking to, or a leader with a team, that's looking to introduce more of these elements into their organization.

Of course we can call [00:30:10] you. And I'm going to put all your details in the show notes of this podcast of folks who are interested in speaking with you directly can reach out. But for those folks looking to kind of get things started off in their organizations, where should they go? [00:30:20] Hmm. 

Guest 1: [00:30:20] Well, I guess it depends where that person is.

Who's listing work, like where they work as far as a type of industry and what type of role they are in, because all of those [00:30:30] things would play into that answer. If you were working with people that are. Uh, working from home, the number one thing I would [00:30:40] go back to is, you know, are, are your, are you leading by example, are people having, uh, opportunities to take those breaks to in between [00:30:50] meetings?

Are, are they able to take time off? Like, is there a burnout culture in your, in your team? Uh, if that's all you have control of, if is of your team, [00:31:00] if you're a higher leader, you know, What are you modeling and that vulnerability piece and that playful piece, and is fun [00:31:10] scheduled in to your week. You know, that we're having fun together and we're connecting and building those relationships.

Those are all within the control within any industry within any [00:31:20] role, you know, those relationship pieces. Now, if you want to start getting into playful, creative marketing and know, that's, it, that's a different piece and, you know, creating, [00:31:30] um, services and products. You know, engage with your customers on a more playful way or events that are more playful.

It's uh, you know, I, [00:31:40] I guess diversity would be one. I would also bring up like the more diverse your group is. You have that psychological safety built [00:31:50] in, then you're going to be getting more ideas around the table. I mentioned briefly Lego serious play. And one of the beauty pieces of that is that it is [00:32:00] extremely inclusive.

Everyone, no matter where they are in the organization, when they're sitting around the table has equal amount of time to express their ideas [00:32:10] and their solutions and their thoughts and their insights equally. So we don't get. Challenge of, you know, 20% of the room doing 80% of the talking. So, you know, looking at [00:32:20] that is definitely a piece of.

Playfulness and just bringing all the ideas to the table to make the work more fun, you know, [00:32:30] ask, ask your employees what type of play personalities do they have because everyone has a different inclination to how they like to play too in and outside of work. [00:32:40] And then that piece around flow are the people that are working with you for you doing the work that they love to do.

That, that, that is their sister. [00:32:50] So there's a lot, there, there 

Matt: [00:32:52] is a lot there, but it, but it all, it's all complimentary because if people are doing their best work, then they're going to deliver the [00:33:00] best product. Um, if we're aligning all these elements thoughtfully, um, then we are able to realize really benefit in every [00:33:10] possible way.

And. It just requires some intention and some thoughtfulness around how we deploy it. Uh, but it, it, it, it stands to reason that there's just so many different [00:33:20] arguments for us to bring this into organizations. When we've talked about innovation, we've talked about collaboration and team building. We've talked about people working in a state of flow.

[00:33:30] We've talked about customer acquisition and retention. We talked about employee acquisition and retention, but there's one topic that we haven't really dug into that I think we'd be remiss if we didn't mention, especially [00:33:40] today. And that is. We have a significant challenge ahead of us in terms of mental health, that a lot of people right now are suffering.

Um, [00:33:50] they're isolated, or they are detached from their usual social networks. Um, and whether you're extroverted and you're craving that social interaction, [00:34:00] or whether you're introverted and suffering in your own way. It's it stands to reason that a lot of people have to have taken on much more in terms of a psychological burden over the last 18 [00:34:10] months.

And I'm curious from your perspective, Kiersten, how play and how fun can be an antidote for some of that. 

Guest 1: [00:34:19] Well, [00:34:20] I love the word antidote in play in the same sentence. Thank you, Matt. And it is, and, you know, as individuals, we can do a lot to help ourselves deal [00:34:30] with, uh, energy management and setting boundaries and, um, you know, creating a support network for ourselves in and outside of work, people that we can go to and [00:34:40] completing that stress cycle.

And I will say yes, and a big, you know, applied impact. Uh, expression there. I would also add that [00:34:50] it is from the leader's perspective to create. A environment that doesn't burden people with [00:35:00] unrealistic expectations of workload. You know, if you know, when I, you know, had a staff of 10, you know, I would make sure I had enough staff to do [00:35:10] the work within a reasonable amount of time.

And, you know, it comes down to money. It comes down to budgets, but. If it is unrealistic, if it's, um, you know, [00:35:20] how, how can people have mental health and, you know, maintain productivity. If, if they're stressed to the max, if they're working, you know, [00:35:30] crazy amounts of hours. So. Yes, play can help you be more resilient and deal with stress and uncertainty and unpack, you know, help [00:35:40] you have a longer day perhaps, or do hard things.

All those things are great when we're using play within breaks, using play within our mindset, [00:35:50] making work, that's not so fun, fun, and we as leaders need to also be making sure that. People have the support they need, and we're [00:36:00] creating an environment that is not all about overwork, 

Matt: [00:36:03] amen to that. For a lot of reasons, this has been a really awesome conversation.

And I think, you know, one thing I've been [00:36:10] very mindful of since the pandemic has started is to try and take something away from each of the people that I speak with. Uh, and I was eager to connect with you today, Kiersten, because of just your [00:36:20] emphasis on your area. I think among the literally dozens of great lessons that you have introduced us to today or teased out, [00:36:30] or even just, um, you know, reinforced.

I think one thing I'll take away very tactical tangibly and intangibly will be is the idea of just having little play breaks throughout the day. [00:36:40] Um, you know, whether it's playing your favorite song right now between meetings, because let's be honest, those back-to-back zoom calls can be tedious for the best of us, whether it is [00:36:50] taking that five minute walk in the sunshine around the block and just getting some, some outside, some fresh air.

It's something that I've always struggled with because I always get, you know, get emphasized on [00:37:00] productivity and I want to get my day done. And I just want to kind of grind my way through the next meeting. And, uh, we. Scientifically we know from speaking with you, that that [00:37:10] behavior while learned is actually running counter to all of the science and all of the best practices that we need to find more times for play.

So I'm going to resolve myself here to make commitment, [00:37:20] to introduce more fun into my Workday and I write. And right now I'm busily trying to figure out the song I'm going to play after this chat into my next meeting. Yeah. 

Guest 1: [00:37:28] And I'm glad you brought up [00:37:30] nature because you know, that is the theme of, uh, mental health awareness month.

And, uh, it's, it's a, it's an amazing powerhouse of, uh, resilience [00:37:40] nature. So, you know, like really dive into that one. That is, that is an awesome one. And I love that. You're thinking about all your favorite different ways, right? For people that are [00:37:50] listening to think about their personal, uh, what works for them, because for w what works for one person is not going to work for another.

So if knitting is your jam, you know, [00:38:00] just think reflect after you do the play activity experiment, um, do a little evaluation. How do I feel afterwards? Do I feel more relaxed? Do I feel more drained? Like if [00:38:10] you say, oh, I'm going to scroll social media in between these two media and the, in between these two meetings, you may not.

Feel energized afterwards [00:38:20] as compared to doing a play break. That's like riding your bike for five minutes walking, as you say, doing a dance break here. Think, think about all the different things you [00:38:30] used to like to do as a child. And maybe one of those things is something you want to bring back into your adulthood swimming, or it could be anything so skipping.

[00:38:40] Matt: [00:38:40] It could literally be anything. It could be a dog. Kiersten. Thank you so much for your time today. It's always a great conversation that you and I have had we've as I mentioned to start this podcast, you and I've had a [00:38:50] number of them offline, and I was eager to bring it into this format. Thank you so much for the generosity of your time of your, you know, your thinking and around some of your best practices.

[00:39:00] As I mentioned folks, I will link all of Kirsten's details in the show notes of this podcast. If you want to reach out to her, please do so she's an absolute blast and, and knows her way around an organizational culture [00:39:10] as well. So, Kristen, thanks for your time. Thanks for

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