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Thinking Inside the Box
A show where we discuss innovative ways organizations, and their leaders overcome complex issues at work
Thinking Inside the Box
How Innovative HR Strategies Shape Modern Enterprises - Tami Rosen
In today’s episode, I chat with Tami Rosen, Chief People Officer at Pagaya to explore the ins and outs of HR transformation.
Tami formerly held leadership roles with Goldman Sachs, Apple, and Atlassian. And our discussion was a reunion, of sorts. Tami and I first met during the Global HR Summit in 20202, where she was kind (and brave) enough to join us as one of 60 speakers - in a virtual reality headset.
Our discussion started there, with a look back at the Global HR Summit, as Tami shared her lingering impressions from the event, alongside her insights on the potential of virtual reality technology in HR for large enterprises.
Tami passionately advocates for HR's role as a disruptive and innovative force, capable of not just supporting but actively driving organizational change. And so we took the opportunity to highlight Tami's introduction of the Continuous Learning Cycle (CLC) at Pagaya, a pioneering approach that replaces traditional 360 reviews, focusing on enhancing employee development and productivity.
It was another in a line of memorable discussions. And I hope you enjoy this as much as we did recording it.
Tami Rosen
A recognized thought leader, influencer and senior executive in HR, Tami Rosen spent her career transforming the impact of Human Resources as a senior executive for some of the world’s most recognized companies, including Goldman Sachs, Apple, Luminar Technologies, Atlassian, and, most recently, Pagaya, where she currently holds the title of Chief People Officer and leads a dynamic workforce of over 750+ across Israel and the United States.
Tami's visionary perspective goes beyond viewing people as a company's most valuable asset; she sees HR as a disruptive technology and innovative force that drives business operations and capabilities beyond the imaginable. Her forward-thinking approach positions HR as a catalyst for transformative change, shaping the future of organizations.
Embodying a leadership style steeped in inclusivity and innovation, Tami has pioneered groundbreaking initiatives focused on the advancement of underrepresented communities. She established Wall Street's inaugural, award-winning LGBTQ+ Ally Program at Goldman Sachs and designed the framework for Atlassian's 'TEAM Anywhere' program that has redefined remote work paradigms. Her contribution to Pagaya is cemented in the company's foundational value: 'Culture of Learning,' which centralizes learning and education in all aspects of the organization.
Thinking Inside the Box
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Matt
Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.
Tami Rosen: The challenge I see and why HR needs to be a disruptor is that it's very easy for a company to talk about what they're doing on the outside, whether through press or their blogs, or just even their thought leadership pieces, but not actually practice it in the inside. I equate that to and maybe this is my Apple and me when you have an iPhone, most of us wouldn't know if you opened up the iPhone. It's as beautiful on the inside as it is on the outside. Now, why would they do that? Well, it's about craftsmanship and practicing what you preach. And I think to have Hrs disrupt a thing, we need to practice what we preach and make sure we do the things that we say. Missing someone.
Matt Burns: And strength. Strive innovation. Hey, everyone, it's Matt, here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss the innovative ways organizations and their leaders overcome complex issues at work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at our shiny new website, insidetheboxpodcast.com and on all of your favorite podcast platforms by searching Making Inside the Box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us, uh, a, uh, five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Tammy Rosen, the chief people officer at Bagaya, to explore the ins and outs of HR transformation. Tammy formally held roles with Goldman Sachs, Apple, and Atlassian, and our discussion was a reunion of sorts. We first met, actually, during the Global HR summit in 2020, where Tammy was kind enough and brave enough to join us as one of 60 speakers in a virtual reality headset. And our discussion started there with a look back at the Global HR summit as Tammy shared her lingering impressions from the event alongside her insights on the potential of virtual reality technology in HR for large enterprises. Tammy's a passionate advocate for HR's role as a disruptive and innovative force, capable not just supporting, but actively driving organizational change. And so we took the opportunity to highlight Tammy's introduction of, um, the continuous learning cycle at Pagaya, a pioneering approach that replaces traditional 360 reviews and instead focuses on enhancing employee development and productivity. It was another in a line of memorable conversations, and I hope you enjoy it as much as we did recording it. And now I bring you Tammy Rosen. Tammy, it's been a few years since we last spoke, and I think the last time I saw you, you might have been in a virtual reality headset. How you been?
Tami Rosen: I'm doing well. And it's nice to actually see you face to face after all those years, right?
Matt Burns: Yeah. I feel like anytime you talk to people from 2020, it feels like it was like an era ago, even though it was only three years ago, but I feel like so much has happened with you in the last three years. For those who don't know, Tammy, maybe catch us up. Who is Tammy Rosen? Your background, your experiences, and your path to today?
Tami Rosen: Well, thank you, Matt, for having me today. And I'm, um, happy to share my background. I grew up in Long Island, new York, in, um belmore, actually. Um I used to call it Long Island. I think I learned that Long Island had a different, uh, way of saying it. I went to college upstate New York, in Binghamton, and was studying law and society and really thought I'd be a lawyer. And that was until I worked for the public defender's office and realized this wasn't for me. And I got my first job at NatWest Bank, which kind of set me on my path. It was a loan officer training program. And after three short years, I realized it really wasn't for me. And one of the great parts about a career is you get to decide the things you want to do and the things you don't want to do. And I loved talking to people, helping companies to build, but I didn't love sitting behind a desk and only crunching numbers while I could do it. Um, and so I started looking for something different and fell into a recruiting company, um, headhunting, as I used to call it back then, uh, for technical people on Wall Street. And that sort of set me on the path for where I am today in people. And I realized very quickly, I loved helping people to find their next opportunities and helping them to see them grow and develop through it. And that led me to think I might want to start my own company doing that. But I knew I needed money and I needed a partner, or at least I wanted a partner. So I took a short term contract with Goldman Sachs as a technical recruiter, one of the first technical recruiters at Goldman Sachs. And that set me on my path. Um, I guess, ironically, you could say I'm a failed entrepreneur, because I stayed there almost 17 years and grew from contract recruiter all the way through to an MD, running large people organizations at Goldman and creating some amazing programs that are legacies today. And then at some point, I kind of got a call, um, and through networking, bumped into Apple and was asked to come out to work in Apple HR, and ultimately in Apple University, and took my family cross country to do that. And it was probably one of the best decisions I made to kind of change up, uh, where I was and where I was going, because it really set me on a path to realize that HR is different in different companies and there's opportunities to do different things. But at Apple is where I kind of got the fever for wanting to work at a startup and to really think about how you change HR. And I went to a couple of startups like Luminar Technologies, which is a LiDAR company, and then found my way to Atlassian during the pandemic where you and I got to meet. And funny story, Matt, is I think at the end of my Atlassian time, I really felt it was time to retire and do my own thing. I wanted to write, I wanted to teach, and I wanted to go on boards. And luck would have it, a dear friend of mine from Goldman Sachs was sitting on the board of Pagaya and called, uh, me up and kind of begged me to have a conversation with the CEO. And I was like, you know what? I'm sort of done with that fan. I'm not really looking to go back in. I want to do my own thing. They said, Just do me this favor. And I agreed. It was one of the most open, honest, one of the best conversations that I've ever had with the CEO in a long time. And while I said no to him, when he asked me if I would join him at that moment, and it would take probably six months before I decided it was the right thing to do, it was really, um, an amazing conversation that kind of led me to where I am today. And so now I'm a failed retiree and I'm working at Pagaya. Um, and for those that don't know Pagaya, it's A B to B to C, global financial technology company. And we're founded on a mission to help give financial opportunities to more people. And we do this through innovating in the underwriting systems and leveraging AI capabilities. Um, and Pagaya is, um, maybe I love a disruptor. And what I saw in Pagaya is a company that has this two way network that really helps to take our data to help our partners get more consumers and then our investors to get the assets they want. And I'm excited to say it's been probably the best decision of a decade to say yes, even though I said no for six months working at a company like Pagaya.
Matt Burns: It's a really interesting story, and I, uh, do want to double click on a few chapters of the story. But since you mentioned it most recently, I think it's really interesting, Tammy, because the story you just told about joining Pagaya is a story that I hear a lot when I speak to HR leaders who feel very good and very concrete in their roles. And I talk to other HR leaders who at times can join organizations and they feel like maybe they can't have those tough conversations, maybe they're a little bit reticent to ask those tough questions going into an organization. For those who aren't familiar, when you're an HR leader going into a large company, you really have to make sure your values align with your leadership team. And it sounds like, Tammy, that chat really helped put you on that path.
Tami Rosen: Well, I think it was that chat plus over maybe the different touch points of meeting different people at the company. And honestly, when you are not looking to do something or not, like I was looking to retire, not go back in, you can ask the most honest questions and see whether that culture fits with you and you can align to see, can you work together. Because the most important thing is that you're going to be able to work with the leadership team, the CEO, whoever it may be, and also have that same passion and love for what you're going to do. Right. And, um, through that six months of questioning whether it was right for me, I learned a lot about who Pagaya is, what they stand for, their value system. And I think most people, when they look at going for jobs, kind of forget to ask those questions. They're looking at getting the job versus is it right for me? And this was a great opportunity for me to say, is it right for me? And boy, has it been. And yes, it was. Um, but it was because I asked all these questions and we had these honest conversations and shared both the positives and negatives could be of working together.
Matt Burns: I'm curious, you've worked in a number of industries, from financial services to technology, and now you're in the disruptive fintech space. How has your experience across multiple industries shaped how you look at human resources strategy today?
Tami Rosen: Such a great question and I have been fortunate to see it from all different types of industries, size and scales. And what I would say is that HR is not a one size fits all. I think a lot of people want to say, here's how you do performance review or here's how you do compensation, here's how you do that. Those are the components, but they don't all look the same. And that the people strategy in each company needs to work not only for the culture and the mission, but for your marketplace and the macro environment. So let me give you a couple of examples. When I was at Goldman, we don't have a physical product. People really drives your product. So you have to design differently around the different HR initiatives or the people strategy to fit that need of how people can stay motivated and grow and develop so they can do their best work. Which might be different than at an Apple where people are drawn to the product and they're going to join because of the product and they want to build that new product. They have a different need as well. So if you're trying to design for those two different companies, you'd get it wrong if you did the same thing. And similarly, if you're going to a SaaS company or a LiDAR company, again, there are different stages and sizes. And what I'd say is, like, for example, at Atlassian in the pandemic, what worked for HR, for Atlassian before I joined, now you have this pandemic in front of you, is not going to work. And you have to say, what do the people need and how do you meet them where they are? And resiliency was one of those key things. So we needed to design resiliency programs and support mental health, and think about how do we connect people who are now working remotely, like through silly things like a Walk This Way challenge, or creating opportunities for people to understand how to, uh, be mindfulness so that they can have their best focus when they're ready. We also had to think about how we were going to work. And that's where I got the luxury of being able to design team anywhere, which has set Atlassian apart from many other companies, and really design how you work, not where you work. And now coming to Pagaya, we have all different challenges with all different types of, uh, market, culture, mission, all of that stuff being quite different. And we center around learning and creating something that works for us would not look the same if you did it at Atlassian. So it's all to say that it's not a one size fits all. And you need to kind of think about the mission, the culture, and your marketplace, as well as the macro environment and design accordingly.
Matt Burns: You've long advocated, at least as long as I've known you, for disruptive HR, that HR needs a shakeup, and you just alluded to it in your last conversation. I'm just curious if you could elaborate a bit more insofar as how you see HR as an innovative force that can elevate an organization.
Tami Rosen: Yeah, this is my favorite thing to answer, because I think most people think about HR as, um, you're going to make sure you hire, you promote, you pay, you fire. Well, I shouldn't say you want to fire too much or whatever you deal with attrition all those different things. And really what you have to, uh, look across is that, what is the people strategy, um, that you need to drive your business strategy. And people strategy is your business strategy. And it can't be, and I like to use this analogy, a field of dream strategy. And what I mean by that is, in the movie of Field of Dreams, they build a baseball field in the middle of a cornfield, and they build it, and then all of a sudden, people start to come and watch. Right? So you don't want a strategy that people are just coming because you're building something for it. You want them to come because your strategy is really driving, um, what the business needs. And I think all of us want to come to a company to do our best work. Really unencumbered to do that. However, there's so many things that get in the way. And that strategy needs to help glue that together. For example, you could have a new manager that you work for that is learning to lead, or you're trying to build an inclusive environment so that all voices are heard. Or you're coming to a startup and you came from a very traditional company and you don't know what it means to work in a place where there's no infrastructure. All this is to say that your strategy needs to be flexible, nimble and create the things that will make the difference for each of the employees to be able to do their best work and feel good about that. The challenge I see and why HR needs to be a disruptor is that it's very easy for a company to talk about what they're doing on the outside, whether through press or their blogs or just even their thought leadership pieces, but not actually practice it, um, in the inside. I equate that to, uh and maybe this is my Apple. And me, when you have an iPhone, most of us wouldn't know if you opened up the iPhone. It's as beautiful on the inside as it is on the outside. Now, why would they do that? Well, it's about craftsmanship and practicing what you preach. And I think to have Hrs disrupt the thing, we need to practice what we preach and make sure we do the things that we say. And one of the things I will say at, uh, Pagaya that I'm so proud of is we center everything around, uh, learning and all the things we do around learning, and that we talk about it. We action it and we live it, and we talk about it outside, we talk about it inside, and that actually makes it truth.
Matt Burns: Hey, everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation. And before we continue, I want to update you on my latest creative project, this Week at Work. Every Friday at 07:00 a.m Pacific Standard Time. That's 10:00 a.m. Eastern and 03:00. P.m GMT. My good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders and I discuss the latest trending topics on the minds of executives globally. From organizational culture to technology and the future of work, we cover it all, and we invite some of our favorite colleagues to join us, from Dave Ulrich to Whitney Johnson, and executives from iconic brands such as NASA, Krispy Kreme, and WebMD. What can I say? We like to keep things interesting. And if you've been following us for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun partnership chris and I have developed over years podcasting together. We're not afraid to be real, share our own challenges, and ask the tough questions. Joining? Well, that part's easy. Follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell icon on the top right of my profile, and you'll get notified when we go live. And now back to our discussion. One such example that I was really curious to poke more on, if you're cool with it, is the idea of this continuous learning cycle. And I know that you did that to replace the traditional 360 assessments that we're all familiar with. Could you just explain a bit more, Tammy, how the approach enhances employee development and productivity and then provide examples of how maybe you've deployed it in organizations?
Tami Rosen: Absolutely love to. And of course, as I just said, centering around learning. You have to design around learning. And I like to say that performance management as we know it is dead because it is really muddied with too many outcomes. It's muddied with how you promote, how you pay, and sometimes how, you know, how you deal with compliance. So in many ways, those things are not going to help employees learn and grow. So what the CLC is, or the continuous learning cycle, is an opportunity to have something that is simple, lightweight, but impactful. And it centers around learning. And what I mean about learning is it's not just the acquisition of knowledge, which is the normal definition of learning. It's also the application of it into new, different things. And so what the cycle does is it has four very simple questions. What have you accomplished in the last six months? What have you learned, both your successes and where you've fallen on your face? What are you looking to do in the next six months? And then what support and help do you need from the management and also from the company? And an employee will put their reflections in, usually at Pagaya, that takes one week, and we get like, 99% to 100% of people doing it. And then the managers will put in their reflections, and that takes very quick as well. And then by the time we're done, in one month, almost 100% of employees have had conversations and discussions to align on both of their reflections regarding the goals they're setting, the things they've learned, and where they're going to go. Um, and it's very widely a loved process here. We did a survey in the last time, and it was the fourth cycle, and over 75% said they looked forward to the next CLC, and we do it twice a year. That, to me, is a win, because I don't know how many of you look forward to your next performance review, but this really centers around learning.
Matt Burns: Well, it centers around the individual. And I think traditional performance management programs, and I'm guilty of building them myself, um, centered around the administrator or around legal and around checking the box. And you built a wonderful strategy that really puts the employee at the heart of the strategy. I think it speaks to your point, the broader strategy at Pagaya and how talent really is a differentiator for you.
Tami Rosen: Guys in the marketplace 100%. And one of the things that I think is super hard for people is learning. We all say we want to learn and learning is we all, again, think about it as an acquisition of knowledge. But I like to use the analogy that if you're a skier and I don't know matt, are you a skier?
Matt Burns: I am.
Tami Rosen: Okay. Are you a snowboarder too?
Matt Burns: I am not.
Tami Rosen: Okay, right. So now you're going to get my analogy. Well, so if you're a skier and you can go and do almost any part of the mountain and feel very confident and it's enjoyable, if someone then asked you to learn snowboarding, how would you feel?
Matt Burns: Oh, I've tried it. It's not pretty.
Tami Rosen: I imagine it's not you're on your butt. It's humbling. Maybe after a day or two, you can go down the bunny hill, but you can't go across the whole mountain in two days. Right. It takes time to actually acquire that skill. But when you do, and then you actually have another way of working. Right. And you have now two. And I think that's what we're trying to achieve at Pagaya is give people that ability to learn new things. That gives them more ability to do and to kind of have greater accomplishments, not only for themselves, but for the company.
Matt Burns: When we last met, I teased this in the beginning, it was 2020. The world was a very different place. We were in different organizations at the time and solving different problems, but we were also in virtual reality headsets. And I'm just curious, three years ago, feels like a lifetime ago, what are your lasting impressions from the Global HR summit? And I'm just curious, have you given any thought to the future of virtual reality in organizations?
Tami Rosen: So that feels like so long ago. Matt M. 2020 and in a virtual headset, I actually got my visual. It was probably one of the most incredible experiences that I had had in any kind of conference. And I think it's something that should be utilized more. What I loved about it is when you're in that virtual reality, you are completely present and focused. There's no real multitasking that goes around, and you could be present in what you're thinking and doing and your surroundings. Right. Because you're focused on all of that. I also think it allows for so many different people to come to in a conversation that probably couldn't fly or afford to attend those conferences, which then brings more voices to the table, which I absolutely loved. And I thought the conversation was really rich as a result of that. And I think we need to be doing this more. I think we need to use this technology more for these kind of conversations and thought leadership exercises. Um, because I do think it helps people to expand their mindset and bring more voices to that table.
Matt Burns: And I think you're spot on it. For me, it was the inclusion piece that stuck out for me right off the bat. It was the immersion, which I loved. And somebody who suffers from borderline ADHD. I love the idea of being forced to do one thing. So that was great. And then, to your point, the inclusion piece, because there were people at that conference that would, frankly, have not have made the trip if it hadn't been for the virtual reality headset. And I would love the fact that we were able to engage a diverse set of speakers, but also attendees by using that modality. Now, granted, when you're using a virtual reality headset in 2020, you do have a bit of a sample size that includes people who are more innovative and people that are more technology, um, forward. True. And the depth and breadth of the conversations and the challenges and the solutions that I heard over those three days was, frankly, really incredible. And I'm glad it was a good experience for you, Tammy. I mean, I spent those three days in a virtual reality headset and was dreaming in avatars for two weeks afterwards. I don't recommend doing that. Uh, but I do recommend for those folks that are interested in exploring the use of the technology. Folks like Tammy have been innovating in this space. I think it's that opportunity to break that wall of hybrid where we have this narrative that if you're not face to face physically, that you lose out on the connective tissues that exist in organizations. And I think that's partly true, except that there are solutions like virtual reality that can stand in as a really cool proxy for things like performance reviews. Like, I'd love to do my performance review with my coach over a virtual reality headset. And that's what we do in our organization because it's a much more intimate, much more immersive, much more collaborative environment than me just sending an email and, let's say, view it over a zoom call. So I appreciate your perspective on that. The other thing I want your perspective on, Tammy, because I was doing my research, as I do for all of my conversations, and one thing I was able to dig into that I didn't know about you beforehand was at Goldman Sachs. You actually co founded one of the first LGBTQ programs on Wall Street. And I think there's a good story behind that. I'd love to hear the evolution story behind that program at Goldman.
Tami Rosen: Absolutely. And it is one of, uh, my most treasured accomplishments in my career. It started with understanding the problem. Um, and the problem at the time, and I'm going to take you back to 2006, 2007 on Wall Street is that people were afraid to be who they are in the workplace. And Wall Street was definitely one of those places that was not welcoming. And we had, at the time, a number of employee resource groups across Goldman, whether it was the black network or the Hispanic network or even the women's network. And I remember saying, it's so weird that people are coming to me individually and telling me who they are and coming out, but they're unwilling to do it to their managers or to their teams. And I said, that can't be. And when I looked at the LGBT program that we had, only one person was on the two. When they'd send out an email, everybody else was BCC'd. And I was one of those people that got to see who was on the BCC. And it surprised me. So many people would be unwilling to be who they are. And so something had to change. And the only thing we needed to do is figure out how do we make a welcoming environment so people can be who they are in the workplace? And I remember pitching to the senior leaders the need for this, and the first thing that people said to me was, well, why do they need allies? And doesn't, um, the women's network or black network or the Hispanic network need allies? And I said, Absolutely, they do. We all do. But those allies can identify those people in those networks where in the LGBT network, you wouldn't know who's LGBT and who's not. And you need to be more visible. So it has to look different. So we created this program with my co founder, Alison Grover, um, who actually was in the LGBT network. And together, we concocted a plan to go to each division and say, here are the people that are willing to have the conversation with you. Here's what's working, here's not working. And let's create a conversation first, and then let's create a program. And we started the program in 2008, probably right before the worst, um, market crash in history. But what we did was really made it okay to be an ally and to show your support and okay to be who you are in the workplace. And to this day, I still get people who thank me for creating that environment, making Goldman such a welcoming company to all people, including LGBT. And I guess I get to, um, be known as the first ally to Goldman Sachs or the LGBT. So it's something I wear with pride.
Matt Burns: It's a wonderful story and a story that I love to hear, because I know in that industry in particular, it's challenging and there's a way of doing things. And when you're talking about stopping and reflecting and giving pause and being inclusive, these are attributes that, frankly, don't always align with a numbers driven, very fast moving industry. So kudos to you, for, one, bringing the program to life, but I think, more importantly, bringing the stakeholders along that journey, because that does not happen without really strong stakeholder management. And I'm sure that came into play during the Pandemic. When we last spoke, it was the Atlassian days. There was virtual reality, and we were talking about the Pandemic and how it was reshaping work. And it reshaped the work a number of ways. It talked about obviously, we've reshaped. Work and how we do it and where we do it, and all those fun things. But I'm just curious, as you've gone through the last three years, drawing upon all your experiences, how would you think about future of work policies and how should they align with an organization's, mission, vision, values?
Tami Rosen: So that's a real heated question, because there's so much in there. So I'll try to break it down. First, I want to be clear that the pandemic didn't reshape the way we work. It was very clear. It reshaped where. And we had no choice. So it wasn't like, you can do an A B experiment on it. And because of that, we oriented around where we work, um, not how we work. And we replaced in person, due to the fear of sickness, to zoom. Um, and in some cases for you, virtual reality. Right? And that actually didn't solve the challenge here, because you can't just sit on Zoom 100 meetings a day. Um, it's very exhausting. Um, everyone knows there's zoom fatigue. Um, so I think the way we have to think about policies around how we work today and in the future really needs to orient around how and the where is a plug. Um, and what I mean by that is that the where can be more flexible. Some companies have gone completely fully remote. Some companies are in a hybrid. And what I like to say for Pagaya is we are an in person culture with flexibility, and trying to get people into that orientation of, um, it's not where you're working, but how you're doing it. Because intentional collaboration is the key to all of this. And when I designed the team, uh, anywhere, you have to look at it as sort of a triangle. There's sort of, how are you going to get people in all different places so you get the best talent? How are you going to make sure that people have choice about what works for their family and their work life? But those two things don't work together unless you have a very deliberate collaboration strategy, both in person and virtual. And it's not for every company. So there's all this stratification of fully remote to fully in office and everywhere in between. You have to look at your company's goals, your mission, and say, what's going to work for you? And I remember coming to Pagaya and the founder of Pagaya said to me, tammy, we're not going to be a team anywhere company. And I said, I know, and we probably shouldn't be. We're scaling very fast. We had, at the time, 20 people in the New York office, and, uh, almost 150 plus in Israel. And yes, you're hiring so quickly, and you're bringing people in. Having everybody remote doesn't always work when you have such a fast paced environment. And the work needs to be with people interacting every day. So, for us, being in the office is kind of the default, but there's a lot of flexibility. And most people will probably be in the office like three days a week, and then two days. They'll either work remotely, but that's not everyone. And, uh, for me, I prefer to be more in the office because I like the interactions that happen when you kind of collide with somebody in the hall. Others don't love that. Right. But I do think it's super important that we look at, um, the how and create those structures and those value system and the way you're working that really works no matter where you work. Um, and I do think one key thing matt, I'm curious, your thoughts too, is I think for the generation coming out of college today, being fully remote is a challenge for them. And they lose a lot of sort of that stuff that happens in the give and take when you're in person. And I think we need to solve for that more, especially in the companies that are going to stay in the hybrid or a fully remote way.
Matt Burns: Yeah, I don't envy new grads going into fully remote environments. I benefited a ton in my early years in the corporate world, being in a physical office, having coaches and colleagues be able to guide. And I made a ton of mistakes that, frankly, I got instant feedback on, that I was able to apply and grow and learn and provide the same value to other people. And in the early days of the Pandemic, I followed a lot of companies closely. One of them, HM, was Google, who experienced predictable challenges, like a lot of companies in those early days. And I was surprised to hear I guess maybe not surprise isn't the right word, but I was curious to hear that their biggest challenges in the early days of the Pandemic were, as you said, with their newest employees, because they didn't have those informal communication networks, they hadn't spent those hours at the proverbial water cooler. They didn't know who to go to for what exactly. So they floundered. And their programmers in particular, which were easier to measure in terms of their output and performance around code, really struggled to make inroads in a way that their contemporaries didn't struggle when they were able to move into an office environment. So Google had to do a number of things and change the way they oriented their work and have better SOPs and better documentation and better communication channels to facilitate the way work was going to be done in the organization. And I think, to your point, I think it's something that organizations need to be mindful of. There's this narrative that every employee wants to be remote, and that's just not the case. There's lots of employees that prefer to be in a remote environment, and there's employees that don't. And there's individuals that probably have a preference to do one thing, but their life circumstances actually ask them to do something different. Maybe they want to be in the office, but because of elder care, childcare considerations, they can't be in the office five days a week. So I think your point's well taken, and it's about, uh, establishing with the organization that value piece and signaling to the market, and therefore your candidates what culture you are. And now that we've had this conversation, Tammy, I'm very clear on who Pagaya is and what the culture is. And I can make an informed decision now as an applicant, if I want to be in an office first environment with some flexibility, I know this is the place to be. If I'm somebody who wants to be in a fully remote environment, probably not the stop for me. So I think that's really the key piece for me as I talk to leaders around the water cooler these days, is make sure you're being transparent with what you have to offer. Worst, uh, case scenario is doing what I think a company in the US. Did I forget the name of the bank? It's going to come back to me later. But they actually did a 180, Tammy. So they actually started out with fully hybrid and remote, and then they said, uh, new CEO, everyone's back in the office, you have 30 days notice, and if you don't come back, you're gone. Which was, of course, difficult.
Tami Rosen: Right.
Matt Burns: Met with some pretty significant pushback. So I think that the transparency, the candidness, the signaling, uh, what you're doing well, uh, said in terms of those key points.
Tami Rosen: Yeah. I wanted to say one more thing. There is that every company is not for, um, everyone. And even in the beginning, when I talked about why Pagaya was right for me and I found home here, is because I understood what the culture was and what it would mean for me and how I can be successful. And I think it's hard as you go through the interview process, and I watch my daughter and my son, who are in those processes now, figuring it out for themselves. And I encourage them, once they get longer in the process, to ask these questions so they can learn and to do their research, because that's how you're going to know if you're going to be successful there. And whether it's a remote environment or one that has a hybrid or whatnot, it's really that how people work to be successful that you need to know if it aligns with your value. It's it's just an extra component to that process that people need to think about when they're looking for a job.
Matt Burns: They absolutely do, because work is so much more of our lives than it once was. I mean, I remember an era, uh, Tammy, back when there wasn't mobile phones, right? Like, when work ended at 05:00, it actually ended at 05:00 or 06:00 or 07:00 or wherever your work ended. But I remember getting my first BlackBerry and saying, oh, I'm so excited. Now I can check my emails from home. And then two days later realizing, oh, no, now I can check my emails from home. And in saying that the growth and the maturity of technology alongside the way we work has created additional flexibility and options, which is wonderful, and it's changed the very nature of work. And one thing I'm certainly guilty of early in my career was, to your point, not asking those tough questions and really falling in love with a company or a brand and really wanting to make it work, and then realizing, once I'm in the company, this is not what I expected. I didn't ask these tough questions. Uh, I am in a tough spot. And I think for folks nowadays, we need to shift our perspective for a number of reasons, not the least of which is we're now very clearly in a candidate driven market. I know the economy in the United States right now is in a bit of a tougher spot, but the reality is unemployment numbers are low and they're continuing to drop. And demographically speaking, we're going to continue to see an aging of the population, meaning that as employees, as workers, we have the ability to take more agency and really try and find the opportunity that makes sense for us. And I think it's incumbent upon us to really sit down and ask ourselves, what matters to us? What do we need as employees? And to your point, if it's a strong values alignment, great. If it's flexibility and with schedule, awesome. If it's working with a particular leader on a particular project, great. But to go into an opportunity really being thoughtful and intentional about it, I think that's the era we're entering into now. And I'd be curious to follow along with the experiences of your children, because I think it is a unique time to come into the workplace. When we entered the workplace, Tammy, it was very much like, uh, this is the way things are done, and we're teaching you how things are.
Tami Rosen: Yep.
Matt Burns: And now it's like, people come to the workplace like, how do we do things? So it's a very different culture and it's a, uh, unique time. And, uh, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few years.
Tami Rosen: Yeah. I think there's always been a transition for those coming from school into organizations and learning. What the big difference? In school, I go back to the pure definition of learning, which is just acquiring skills and knowledge and experiences. However, in the workplace, you need to take that to an application from an acquisition. And to do that, you have to learn from trial and error in many cases. And that does by watching people, listening to people, getting advice, making mistakes, being willing to make mistakes. And again, another thing, and, um, maybe I'm gushing about Pagaya, but what I love about being at Pagaya is that it's a very open and honest culture, and we're very in our, you know, and I'll tell you, even my own, you get some really direct feedback that is so important that in other organizations doesn't happen because it's muddied with all the other reasons. You have a performance review. But here you can get that honest feedback and learn and learn from it in, uh, a good way. And I think young people coming out of school, going into the workforce are used to having a lot of instant feedback and a lot of that needs to be done in person as well as virtually. And I do think back to your point earlier. VR can play a really interesting role on that.
Matt Burns: Yeah, I think that feedback piece is so critical. The era of we'll get back to you at your next performance review. Keep doing what you're doing. That's done. It, uh, doesn't satisfy anybody, it doesn't meet the needs, and it's indicative of just a broader shift towards a more talent centric environment, which is very much aligned with how you're another obviously, I'd be remiss, Tammy, if I didn't ask you about artificial intelligence in today's conversation, given where you work. I'm just mean every third LinkedIn article references it. Every chat I'm having with an HR executive seems to talk about it. I was at a conference the other day at a Sofa stadium in La with about 200 HR executives. First question asked artificial intelligence. I'm just curious, what role does AI play today in your current HR practice or strategy, and do you envision it changing in the next twelve months?
Tami Rosen: Well, I love technology and I love innovation. Um, so I absolutely love artificial intelligence. And I've been thinking and talking about this for many, many years. And I'm glad with the move of, um, open AI and, um, chat GPT, there's been a lot of progress in a very short period of time, so now it's becoming more mainstream in the conversations. But I do believe that it's going to help the people function significantly. And one of the challenges we have in the people function is we're mired with a lot of administrative and, um, regulatory compliance and tactical things that you need to get done on the everyday that most people don't even see, sort of the behind the scenes operations of running people at a company. And it would be great for some of those things to really be enabled by AI so that the HR teams can spend more of the time on learning and helping people grow and develop and be their best at whatever they're doing and really excel in their careers. We always challenged with our budgets and our time in those things. And I think AI, whether it's helping with simple as helping you write a job description much quicker, where you can write it and then send it to Chat GBT and help you rewrite it, or I'll make a funny one. My husband was so thrilled that, um, maybe he's going to get mad at me for saying this, that he was doing his performance reviews and he leveraged Chat GBT to help him. And it really did help him really figure out better ways to say what he was trying to say and to say it in a way that can be easier and also faster for him in the process. Uh, so I think there's a lot of tools that you can use with AI that will enable dysfunction and enable us to spend more time on the real high touch part of the people function that can really make organizations.
Matt Burns: Um, well, I think that's the differentiator and I know there's a bit of, like, shaming with people around using chat GPT, and I don't think that your husband will mind that much. I think it's actually a really great use case for the technology. His heart's in the right place. He's trying to make sure he can convey the right message in the right tone to his team members and provide the clarity and the depth of the performance review. And for some people, that's not their first instinct. Like for some people you've done this, Tammy, for years, as have I. Coaching leaders around, writing performance reviews. Some of them just doesn't come naturally to them and that's not their fault. They have gifts and talents and strengths in other areas. And yet rather than force them through a, um, bureaucratic administrative process, we can provide them with tools to help them aid them in that effort. Now, if they take that tool and say, write me a generic performance evaluation for somebody and then hit send and that's all their work, then that's clearly not in integrity. But if they use it as a starting point that they then refine and embed specifics about the employee, then that to me is a great use case. And I love also maybe it's the HR executive in me, but I often think about a shorter path to like for me, spoiler alert, I was never really able to recite the specifics of labor code across all over the world. Like, if someone said, hey, Matt, I.
Tami Rosen: Don'T know if anybody wants to really be known. No.
Matt Burns: But when I started in HR, technical and deep knowledge was valued. I started out employee relations. So, like, you law, lot of case law arbitrations, collective agreements, detailed knowledge was really, really valued. And now I think about with AI, I could pop a collective agreement into Chad GBT and ask it a question what is the hours of work provision for employees working below this temperature in this environment? Question gives me an answer. Rather than having to spend time either finding the person who has the answer or doing the search for myself, it to me, is going to provide leaders, and HR leaders in particular, with a shorter path to that answer. And then to your point, they can spend that time coaching and providing feedback and really selling. And one thing I was again mentioning, uh, I was at a conference the other day, and one thing I was talking about with a group of HR leaders was our role is always going to be more challenging because we don't have the power we have to lead through influence. So the more time you can spend with your stakeholders, building those relationships, understanding their pain points, understanding how we can help them in solving their pain points, the better off we're going to be in being able to develop, design, and ultimately roll out programs that can support that. So I think I get excited about that. And I'll be curious to see the application of AI, uh, at Pagaya internally, because I know that the technology is doing some incredible things externally. And that's where I see organizations like yours really being the opportunity is there to really grow quickly because this is a force multiplier. And when you have the right strategy and the right people, this really takes things to the absolute next level. So I'll be curious to see what happens with, uh, you in the next little while.
Tami Rosen: Yes, it's all exciting. And I think the real key here is people to embrace the technology and to really try to learn it and apply it because it will help enable and, um, it's not going to take over your jobs, it's not going to make you obsolete. Fear, um, is not going to help. If you look back in time, every major invention, people had fear. People didn't want cars, they wanted faster horses. That's the adage from Ford, right? So we just have to embrace technology and see that it's not going to take over the humanity that you bring to it, or, um, the ability to really influence it's going to take over the mundane.
Matt Burns: So, Tammy, if our listeners want to find you, get a hold of you, maybe continue this conversation, where's the best place to do that?
Tami Rosen: Well? Absolutely LinkedIn. Um, I'm very active on LinkedIn and I hope people go to my site and see some of the articles I've written and some of the other podcasts. But of course, see this one because it's going to be the best. And, um, yes, I'd love to hear from all of you.
Matt Burns: I'm going to listen to those other podcasts and see if you said the same thing in all those, by the way. No, I'm going to do I'm going to have Chat GPT go through the transcripts and Slag for me if you said it.
Tami Rosen: Absolutely. Let's see what it's I'd love to see what it comes up with.
Matt Burns: Matt, Danny, it's always a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time today and, uh, looking forward to keeping in touch.
Tami Rosen: Thank you so much. Matt, wishing you the best.
Matt Burns: Ento HR is a digital transformation consultancy working at the intersection of strategy, technology and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms, from strategic planning and alignment to technology procurement, implementation and integration, along with organizational design, process reengineering and change management. M with our proven track record of working with complex, high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience and value. For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.