Thinking Inside the Box
A show where we discuss innovative ways organizations, and their leaders overcome complex issues at work
Thinking Inside the Box
How Experience & Life Design Intersect - Ariel Rubin
In today’s episode, I chat with Ariel Rubin, formerly a design lead for iconic brands such as IDEO and Apple. In total, Ariel spent 15 years as a creative professional working as a musician and photographer in addition to leading design.
Today she lives with her family on Vancouver Island and is the owner/operator of Rockrose Farm, a demonstration garden, flower farm & artist centre.
In over 150 episodes of this podcast, Ariel is the first guest we’ve had that I went to high school with. We talked about our individual and collective experiences during that formative time and, later on, Ariel’s journey through a number of professional chapters.
From Victoria, to Cambridge to Silicon Valley - experience design is a common thread - and so I asked Ariel to define it for us, and share how she still embeds it today in nearly every aspect of her life.
It was a wonderful discussion; part journey down memory lane and part reflective session for two professionals at inflection points. An honest conversation that I hope you enjoy as much as I did recording it.
Ariel Rubin
Ariel Rubin spent 15 years as a creative professional working as a musician, photographer and design lead for companies like IDEO and Apple.
She now lives with her family on Vancouver Island, and is the owner/operator of Rockrose Farm; a demonstration garden, flower farm & artist centre.
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Matt Burns
Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.
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Ariel: I did my whole first year. Working during the day, doing classes at night, and then went straight into second year. Similarly, within know again, like, not on paper. Did I look like someone who could go up and work at a place like IDEO or a place like Apple. Um, but it was through just kind of showing up, chatting with people, knocking on doors, getting to know people, that then ultimately ended, uh, up working in both of those spaces, missing someone.
Matt: Strange drive. Innovation. Hey, everyone, it's Matt, here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a uh, show where we discuss the innovative ways organizations and their leaders overcome complex issues at work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at our shiny new website, insidetheboxpodcast.com and on all of your favorite podcast platforms by searching Thinking Inside the Box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving uh, us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Ariel Rubin, formerly a design lead for iconic brands such as IDEO and Apple. In total, Ariel spent over 15 years as a creative professional working as a musician and photographer in addition to leading design works. Today, she lives with her family on Vancouver Island and is the owner operator of Rock Rose Farm, a uh, demonstration garden, flower farm, and artist center. In over 150 episodes of this podcast, ariel is the first that we've had on that I actually went to high school with, and we talked about our individual and collective experiences during that formative period. And later on, Ariel's journey through a number of professional chapters, from Victoria to Cambridge to Silicon Valley. Experience design is a common thread for Ariel, and so I asked her to define it for us and share how she still embeds it today in nearly every aspect of her life. It was a wonderful discussion, part journey down memory lane and part reflective session for two professionals at Ah. Inflection points, an honest conversation that I hope you enjoy as much as I did recording it. And now I bring you Ariel Rubin.
Matt: I've recorded, like, 147 of these, and I've probably said it 140 times that I'm really excited for this conversation. And I have meant it every single.
Ariel: Time that you, uh, didn't say it.
Matt: Well, this hopefully is not going to be the eight, because I am excited for this conversation and I'm excited to chat with you. It's been far too long. Thank you for joining me today.
Ariel: Yeah, I'm happy to be here.
Matt: Well, I mean, we have a lot of background history together. Um, we'll get into all of that. But for those who don't know Ariel Rubin, maybe a bit about your background, your experiences, and what's led you to today.
Ariel: Yeah, for sure. Um, so while we know each other for many years, since we were teenagers and kids. Um, my background, I always have a hard time with this question because it's like, how far back do you how far? I grew up here in the Pacific Northwest, born on a small, off grid, hippie kind of commune island, um, just north of Victoria. Uh, which the reason I talk about that is I think it's informed a lot of the sort of nonlinear moments of my life. Um, but generally, I grew up here in Victoria, always a super creative kid. And that led me into all kinds of creative pursuits, including playing music, um, studying photography and university. Um, and ultimately, that landed me on a series of different jobs, uh, producing, uh, photography work for different photographers, printing the work for those photographers, which led into being a studio manager for different creative professionals. And sort of ultimately led me into working in some big creative tech companies in San Francisco, in the Bay Area. Um, and so I've kind of worked everywhere from as a individual, self driven, creative, as a musician and as a photographer and a designer. And then I've also worked in some of these massive corporate organizations. And, um, I've lived in different places. I lived in Toronto for a number of years. My husband and I lived in the United States up, um, until 2020. For ten years, we lived in Boston first, and then in the Bay Area. And then at the end of 2020, we moved our family back or to Vancouver Island, to Victoria, and we've kind of set up shop here. And so it's been a full circle journey all the way from BC out into the world. And now we're back again with our two kids and, uh, creating a life here.
Matt: Well, we're going to get into that world because it's pretty cool. And I had a chance to circuit the way you guys are living these days a few weeks back, which was awesome. Thank you again for your time. Again, uh, as I mentioned before, I've done this a few times, almost 150 episodes, but you're the first person, Ariel, who's ever been on the show who I went to high school with. Yeah, that's just a weird feeling now that we're in our 40s.
Ariel: Did you go through a phase where you just wore your hood like this, or was that someone else or that.
Matt: Like, South Park style?
Ariel: Yeah. Ah, there was definitely somebody in our class who, uh, just kept their hood closely tied around their face for, like, a week.
Matt: No, I had too much gel in my hair. The hood would have stuck to my top of my head. Exactly.
Ariel: I do remember you were probably always one of the funniest people in our class. You made me laugh a lot then.
Matt: I appreciate that.
Ariel: Uh, I expect a similar level of funny now.
Matt: It's been 25 years, so I'll try my best.
Ariel: Life hasn't jaded you too much.
Matt: I haven't stopped seeing the fun parts of life, as it were. I think, when I tried to explain our experience. Everybody has a unique high school experience. But for the sake of our audience, I think it's worth talking a bit about our experience, because it was unique for those who aren't familiar.
Ariel: Ariel.
Matt: Uh, and I went to a high school in Victoria where there was this program called the Four C Program, or the Challenge Program, where 25 students from across the city were all bust in from all over the parts of Victoria with the kind of under the auspices of the social entrepreneurial, global citizens of the world type program. Uh, we had a unique curriculum. Uh, the vast majority of those 25 students went to school from grades eight through twelve together. And we had a number of experiences that were unique to that program and unique to a lot of other high school experiences. I've tried to tell that story about a thousand times, and each time I do, I just feel silly trying to tell the story. So I'd like, you take an opportunity at taking a crack at that. Maybe you can explain what we went through in a less silly fashion. What was high school like for Ariel Rubin?
Ariel: Well, when I look back on it, I think one of the key things that we got out of that experience was exactly that thing you talked about around. There were 25 of us together through all those years, and most of our classes together, we were in this small cohort. So, even though I don't know what the population of our high school was.
Matt: I don't know if you do, but 800, I think.
Ariel: Yeah, it was a big high school. I don't remember the faces of anyone else in that school other than the kids in that class. And I also was in the music program there. Um, and so those two programs, I think it really, for me, was like a home and a safe space for a sensitive, creative kid who I think I generally wouldn't have fared very well, and I don't think many of us would have in that sort of gen pop situation. And we all had our different quirky brilliances. I think there was a lot of very smart, very creative, um, maybe not the most emotionally mature, but in a way, it was like we weren't battered by the larger school space, and so we were able to grow up a little slower, I think, like, have those high school years in a gentler, safer environment. At the same time, I think we were more academically, um, expected to step up. And there was, I think, every single person out of that class went to post secondary education. Like, the transition rate we were talked to when you go to university was, like, a common phrase. So there was these expectations that were sent into place where we started thinking about life after high school, very early on, within high school. And I think that was I don't know about for you, but I think it was super helpful for me. Like, when I transitioned into post high school world, I was well equipped for that next phase. There wasn't sort of this shock of like, oh, no, now I'm in the real world. We were both protected and prepared for the real world, which is an interesting combination of elements. Yeah. I don't know what else to say about it. I'm curious, what is your feeling or your experience about that time and what did that program do for you? Also, what does the four C's stand for?
Matt: You're going to give me PTSD.
Ariel: Um really?
Matt: No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
Ariel: But I also came into the program in grade ten. I don't know if you know that I wasn't there for grade eight and nine.
Matt: Yeah, you missed the best years.
Ariel: Yeah. So maybe, um, I had an unusual childhood. I lived in different places. I had moved away from my family for a couple of years that's a whole other long story. And returned to the city and came to this school both for the Challenge program and then at the time, it had this amazing jazz music program. Um, yeah. And I think also, I don't know if you found this, but we had really amazing teachers, um, that we got to work with, and that was like, a huge piece of that program. And the third thing I'd say about it that worked for me was there's a ton of self directed work. I think that was part of how they armed us for the world. Um, it wasn't dumbed down. It wasn't like handholding and micromanaging of students. We were held to a high bar. And so especially in grade eleven and twelve, we had a lot of self directed study, and I definitely have as I've aged and as I've gotten into different career spaces, and I've learned that's so much of the way that I thrive and like to work. And so it was great to get those opportunities to go out and create sort of academic moments for ourselves based on things that we were really passionate about and interested in.
Matt: Do you recall the application process?
Ariel: No. See, here's the thing. I didn't have to.
Matt: What?
Ariel: I know, I don't know what happened. My mom just called them or something, and then they just put me into the program. I never had to do the test. I don't know.
Matt: Okay, well, let me educate you on.
Ariel: Because I heard about that, and I heard about how everyone had to do this rigorous testing, and it was so hard to get into, and I somehow just magically showed up and joined the club.
Matt: So let me give you a bit of a window into twelve year old Matt Burns's life. Okay. I was in class with a couple of our, uh, classmates, Christy and Megan, in a school that was about 30 minutes away from our high school by bus. And one day this program is introduced as this cutting edge program across town and they're looking for bright students to do this. And I'm twelve, I don't care. And frankly, I was more interested in going to the high school down the road where all my friends were going. But in Chats at home, there was a conversation around, this might be good for your future and apply. So I applied and got through the first part of the application process, which included notes from teachers and my grades and things like that. Then they took us to the actual school. We went through what I'll characterize lovingly as a barrage of tests that included written, uh, tests, but also an interview.
Ariel: Interesting.
Matt: And the written tests were your traditional Psychrometric test, your IQ test, just like the traditional, trying to assess our applications across a number of different areas. And I would later find out from one of the teachers who was actually the mastermind of the program, that he was trying to create a large cross section of students. So he wanted individuals like yourself that were very artistically inclined, and he wanted people who were the antithesis of that, who were very scientifically and more Stem oriented inclined. And they wanted people from different walks of life, socioeconomically speaking. And they really wanted to create this almost diverse incubator of sorts. And what I'll always remember, I don't remember how I scored, I don't remember how I performed, but I remember the conversation that happened after I got the results because somebody called me and then droned on for about 15 minutes. And by then I was just like, am I in? Am I not in? And the answer was, you're in. And we now want to equip you with some additional information which we think is going to help you as you go through your high school career, which, when I'm at twelve, I didn't fully appreciate and didn't actually tell my parents. But looking back, I'm like, wow, that was really good insights that I wish I actually paid attention to, because the insight was this. And this was, remember, I'm twelve years old. Matt, you're not one of the highest testing people that we're going to admit to this program. In fact, you're in the bottom third. So don't have any illusions around you being the smartest person in the room. You're not. However, we've seen through your testing that you have the ability to work well with other individuals, that you do have a, uh, relatively high emotional intelligence for somebody of your age. And we see early signs of leadership from you. And therefore we want people like you in the program to act as kind of conduits between those that come from different backgrounds to be a facilitator of sorts, to not get in the way and take the spotlight, but rather to enable the success of other people. Are you up for that challenge? Which is when I then asked, Am m I in or am I not? And they said, if you agree to this, the answer is yes. And I went, but I guess I'm in.
Ariel: Yeah.
Matt: Five years later, the program ended, but looking back 25 years ago, I go, wow, that's really good information, and really informed my career. Coming out of high school, into university, into many corporate human resources roles, and ultimately as an entrepreneur, and now as a podcast host, where a lot of times I spend a lot of my day facilitating the success of other people. And I'm blessed to interact with people who are much brighter than me, more articulate, far more intelligence, and have a far greater patience for deep, deep technical expertise or artistic pursuits than I ever had. But I've always appreciated my ability to synthesize information and make it simple, to communicate it in a compelling way, and often fashioned myself as a chameleon. So I appreciated the opportunity to be exposed to people like yourself that were gifted in their own ways and to soak up a little bit of what I could in that process. It's strange to me that you've never chanced to apply because you missed out on an incredibly traumatizing experience.
Ariel: Well, it sounds traumatizing, but also informative. Yeah, that's helpful context, because I think I just kind of showed up, and I had no real sense of what it was or was. I think it was just I don't know. My mom has always she was an excellent mother in the way that she could read kind of where I was going and what I needed and sort of fashion or find these spaces for me to move into. And when I think about it, the entry I had into that program is kind of a recurring theme in my life, which is that maybe if I had applied, I would have got in. It's good to hear your story, because that gives me more of a sense that I might have because I think initially I would have said I wouldn't have got in because I was never a high test score. I was not, like, a brilliant straight A student. There were certain subjects I always excelled in. Um, I remember also getting in a yelling fight with our biology teacher. I don't know if you remember that.
Matt: I do.
Ariel: Yeah. So I was a very like, I spoke up. I was a sassy, loud, would speak up for myself kind of a kid, um, who often was told I asked too many questions, I took up too much space. That kind of feedback of young one being kind of, um, bright and female, um, of being Jewish in an essentially WASPy Protestant environment growing up here. Um, just like some culture clashing, I think. And in that program, though, I did really feel that cross section of different kids, and I felt super accepted immediately and welcomed. And there were ups and downs about the high school journey, but when I think about the cohort and that experience, it always felt like a really safe place, like a place I could be myself. I wasn't having to try and conform to this expected normality that seemed like what so many people go through in high. Yeah, but it's funny because after I left there, I then went on to go study photography at Ryerson. And similarly with know that one, I prepped and prepped and prepped, and I put together this whole portfolio. I printed all of these M photographs in the dark room. And looking back, I think my photographs were quite good. But I didn't get into the program. I got waitlisted. And that one. I had been raised with this kind of, I think, ethos around. Like, it never hurts to just knock on a door and go ask, uh, have a conversation. And so I actually ended up just I was 19, flew to Toronto, and just showed up at the, uh, administrator's office, like, day one of school, and was like, I'm on the waitlist, but if someone doesn't show up, can I have the space? And everybody showed up, and so then they were like, well, you can do night school if you want, do first year at night, and then you can reapply. And that's how I ended up going to university, was I did my whole first year working during the day, doing classes at night, and then went straight into second year. Similarly, within Know, again, like, not on paper did I look like someone who could go up and work at a place like IDEO or a place like Apple. Um, but it was through just kind of showing up, chatting with people, knocking on doors, getting to know people, that then ultimately ended up working in both of those spaces. Um, I don't know what the thread of this is, but it's interesting to think about the different ways you're allowed entry into these kind of held places. Right? Because all of these spaces we're talking about are places that you get this message. Like, this is a parish space. You need to be allowed entry, whether it's into this gifted high school program, or into Know University, or into this elite corporate environment.
Matt: Hey, everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation. And before we continue, I, uh, want to update you on my latest creative project, this Week at Work. Every Friday at 07:00 a.m Pacific Standard Time. That's 10:00 a.m. Eastern and 03:00. P.m GMT. My good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders and I discuss the latest trending topics on the minds of executives globally. From organizational culture to technology and the future of work. We cover it all, and we invite some of our favorite colleagues to join us. From Dave Ulrich to Whitney Johnson and executives from iconic brands such as NASA, Krispy Kreme and WebMD. What can I say? We like to keep things interesting. And if you've been following us for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun partnership chris and I have developed over years podcasting together. We're not afraid to be real, share our own, uh, challenges, and ask the tough questions. Joining? Well, that part's easy. Follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell icon on the top right of my profile, and you'll get notified when we go live. And now back to our discussion.
Ariel: So when, uh, Steve, my husband and I were first in the United States, we lived in Boston, and we lived actually in Cambridge, right near the Harvard campus. And that was like, such a good it had memories to me of my time in the Challenge program, where you're around all these incredibly brilliant people who have just so many social awkwardnesses and challenges within the world and can be incredibly brilliant in one aspect and just absolutely idiotic in another. And I think that's been such a good humbling level set. But also, everyone's an idiot in some capacity. So there are no real doors that are completely closed if you at least go up and knock on them and have a chat with somebody. And sometimes they'll just let you in, and other times they won't. But you don't always have to pass that first test to get into the space.
Matt: No. And I think it's the mark of a true creative when you acknowledge that the rules don't always apply equally to everybody, that you have a chance to kind of forge your own path. I mean, if we moved with this incremental view and we were stuck to traditional methods of entry, we would never have any progress anywhere. And you always struck me as somebody who didn't I wouldn't say that you bucked against the rules, but you more.
Ariel: Didn'T have a why? I was the kid that was like but why justify it? If I see the reasoning, I will absolutely toe the line. But if it's just, uh, for this kind of, like because I said so modality, which is definitely something I ran up against, uh, I felt like I hit up against that a lot while working at like, that was like a place for me. Where that? And m, I think it ties back to that upbringing in Know, being born in this tiny little place here in BC, which continues to this day to be off grid. Um, essentially. Was habitated by draft dodgers and American expats and then kind of leftist alternative young Canadians in the who went there to forge an alternate pathway. And that was where I began life. And so it's very much a place where many people are often saying, but why should I? And is there another way? And I think it's taken many for a long time, I thought that was kind of a handicap for would I would butt heads with people, or it would be harder for me to just toe the line and do it that way. But then the time in the Bay Area and in Silicon Valley reminded me that those companies are founded by and often populated by people with those mindsets. And the only difference between a, uh, technology founder from the who started a company like Apple, and between one of the kind of self propelled pioneer folks that I grew up with on this tiny little island is that where they lived in the business they started. But actually, there is a lot of similarities in that. Kind of like, well, does it have to be this way? Could it be better? Is there another way we could build it? I don't know how this works, but I'm going to try and figure it out anyways. That entering into that unknown kind of, um, undefined space with a sense of adventure and curiosity.
Matt: I guess I'm curious for somebody who does ask why a lot. You seem to be drawn to those traditional institutions, though. It's almost like you're glutton for punishment. Like, are you a masochist? What's happening there?
Ariel: Yeah. And I'm married. I have two. Like, it's the great irony that I think I thought I thought I would be living in an artist loft in New York City with none of it just living a completely alternative life. But here I am, somehow living this very kind of traditional framework. And what is that about? Um, maybe part of it's about growing up in such a nontraditional space. The desire for security and safety is still there. And sometimes I think I noticed for myself, the greater my groundedness is, the more firmly my feet are planted and my sense of base needs are met in terms of home and relationships and finances. Then, uh, for me, my ability to think big and go creative expands. I can't handle a lot of stress and anxiety. The stress and anxiety is the killer of creativity for me. And so I think there's something there in finding that balance between really solid kind of home environment, family. And literally now we live on two and a half acres. We've created this farm. And so it's literally like creating this little bubble of this safe, earthy space. Um, but then from within that, how can we think expansively and still connect to these big worlds?
Matt: Let's talk a bit about the farm. Um, I had a chance to visit a few weeks back on a trip to see my family in Victoria. We had a chance to see each other the first time in 15 plus years. And I was just taken aback by the thoughtfulness around the property, the way you're staging it, and kind of growing into it both personally and then also creatively. Maybe talk a bit about the evolution of how you found it, how you arrived at it, and kind of where it's at today.
Ariel: Yeah. It's funny just thinking about the conversation about creativity. I was always a very creative kid, but I always had this singular dream about having a farm one day. I don't know exactly where that came from, but I remember the image in my mind even when I was four or five years old. And it's an image that's continued to come back into my psyche over the years, even as I've traveled and lived abroad and worked for projects where I'm constantly moving around the world. And it was just like this sort of soul call for this piece of land. And having kids, I think, really brought that to the surface more, because it brought up like, how do I want to raise my children? And I wanted to raise my children to be curious, to be connected with the natural world, and to spend more time dirty feet, matted hair running around outside than they are being shuffled back and forth somewhere in a car or sitting in their room on a computer or something. So all that kind of culminated in where we were at as a family in 2020. We had been living in the United States for ten years. There was a lot going on in the world in that moment, as we all know, between and, uh, especially in the United States, the political landscape COVID. And with COVID the border closed, and so we were locked across the border from our family. And that sort of sparked the fire to start looking at coming back to Canada at the same we my husband and I have been having this conversation for years about it, and every time it would end the same way, where he would say, but, uh, what would we do? Uh, we've been living to work. We've been residing where the work is, and if we leave where the work is, what are we going to do? Neither of us wanted to shrink our workspaces to facilitate that change. Um, and the crack of the facade that happened with COVID was remote work. And even though there was and continues to be a lot of swirl about what does that look like and who approves it and how does it happen, there just was this pin prick of light came through that question for me, and that, uh, ended up with the finding of this property.
Matt: So a farm maybe walk us through visually what's on the farm? What are you farming? What's your vision for the property?
Ariel: Yeah, so the farm is a collection of a bunch of different things. And I think that's really kind of the power of it. It is, um, a flower farm. We sell cut flowers. It's a small nursery. We grow, um, a whole range of plants, from food plants to, um, cut flower plants. It is kind, uh, of an artist center. We have everything from the Victoria Shakespeare Festival is used as a. Rehearsal space. Um, I myself am m an artist, but we have a lot of creative friends and community around here that are starting to use the space in different ways. Um, it's an event space. We have a small event space here with, um, the idea to host intimate classes, educational moments, pop ups, um, really like, I think what this space is, it's a place where creativity, engagement with land, through agricultural practices, um, and different craft, um, can come together. And then also, we both come from a technology background, so it's the home of a technology startup as well. And I think the excitement for us is to bring sort of the world we've been living in to the world where we grew up and mix all that stuff together and create it as like this hub where folks can come together, meet, engage, inspire, get educated about things that just emerge from the creation of this space. And of course, it's also our you, uh, know, we have animals and kids and plants and bees and it's just sort of like this little buzzing hub of life as well.
Matt: Well, in a lot of ways, it's a microcosm for Victoria. I mean, I think about Victoria and of course, being where I was born and raised, it really is the aggregation of technology and nature and family and that kind of return to the roots, but also in an innovative, thoughtful way. And the community is a big part of being in Victoria. So I'm glad to see that you kind of carved a little bit of a little bit of a space within that that really does bring it all together in one single hub. And for folks that are interested, I will include the details to the farm in the podcast notes so they can reach out to you, Ariel, of course, directly. But I know in the future you guys are going to have more events, more exhibitions, and of course, be selling products and services. So for those who are in the Victoria area, I would encourage you to check it out. It's going to be something really cool, special to see.
Ariel: Yeah. I've tried to track back at the point that I decided that I somehow wanted to get into flowers. And I'm not quite sure because even as a kid, I loved playing with flowers and loved arranging flowers. And I was thinking back to this project that we had in our challenge class. I think it was in grade twelve. I don't know if you remember this. We had this self directed project that was maybe half the year, and you essentially were just like to go out, create a project for yourself. You created the entire thing. You created what it was going to be. You did the work, you figured out how you were going to present it, and then you brought it to the teacher. I went into that project being like, I'm going to do a scientific examination of, uh, set of natural spaces, like go around and cordone off little areas and do kind of like a biology level assessment. Very quickly, that unfurled. And essentially it became a photographic project where I photographed wildflowers. And that was what my project was. And I just created this beautiful book. It was a cover and images. And I went around all of the wild spaces around here and over a series of months documented wildflowers, but also just took beautiful photographs. That's what it was. So I feel like that's like, it's like, I think that I'm going to be this technical, I'm going to approach it in this very specific way and then it just ends up being like a creative project about flowers. And so here we are. Um, I was working at Apple up until we moved here. And I really was hitting that point in my life where I was doing the work that I always thought I would want to do. I was helping to produce global creative projects, working with some of the most gifted and amazing artists on the planet, getting paid to travel around the world, getting to stay in beautiful hotels and fly business class. And that was the image that the teenage me thought, one day, if we ever do this, we will have done the thing. And I was feeling so burned out and so kind of run down, and I just kept finding myself making this joke, like, when this is all over, I'm just going to go be a flower farmer. I just kept saying that it was like a joke. It was like the antithesis of what I was doing. I was driving my kids an hour each way, each day, and a nanny and childcare and just all the intensity. Constantly, two of us working in these super high, super intense environments, trying to raise kids. But I just felt like I was starving. And I was that person that was in that work environment with my colleagues. Looking around at a lot of them, a little younger than me, late twenty s, up to their mid thirty s. And if you ask any of them, what was Ariel like in the workplace, they'd be like, she was the one that was always saying, but why are you doing it like that? Do you need a rest? What, uh, do you need right now? Put the work aside for a minute and just think about I always felt countered to the culture because I wasn't leading with, well, work takes everything and what do you have left over? I was always leading with this kind of thought of like, do great work, but also, who are you within this and what do you need right now? And are you even asking yourself if you're okay? Because I could see myself and so many people around me at a level of burnout. I was in a group of eight or ten women in my workplace and I was the only one that had children because the idea of having children within that environment was like impossible. You couldn't afford it, you didn't have time. And the moment that you bring being a mother into those corporate environments, you're immediately hit with the impossible choice, which is you have to prioritize work, but you let your kids down. And if you center your family, you're told you're not focused enough. Uh, anyways, all of that to say that when the world stopped for that moment, for those few days and everything went quiet, all that came into my mind was just like, I want to go home. And the image of that farm resurfaced. And so we started looking and very quickly serendipitously this property arrived. And when I walked onto it, it just like this was the picture that had been in my mind for all of those years. Um, and we were fortunate to be able to buy it, to have the folks sell it to us. And it just felt like kind of a big grand experiment, like, well, maybe we'll come here for a year again. The idea of flower farming, it was kind of almost like a joke and aside, like, what I'm going to go from doing this kind of work to being a farmer, just like wheelbarrowing and digging. But I just felt so like I just needed to feel my feet on the ground again. And I also was raised in environment and within the cultural atmosphere that I was raised in which was like the value is connection to land, being present and aware of what's going on in our environment around us and really valuing that time and seeing the power of getting your hands dirty, having your feet solidly on the ground. And so here we are, two and.
Matt: A half years later.
Matt: Two and a half years later. You left behind, to your point, what many would hold up on a pedestal as the perfect job for the perfect company. Um, in a beautiful part of the world, you and your husband are balancing, but in a lot of ways achieving your professional aims.
Matt: You're two and a half years into this journey. Is it what you thought it would be?
Ariel: To be honest, I had no thought of what it would like. Uh, that's what's strange. I feel like at the point that we were in California working those jobs, that was the end of the line in terms of what either one of us had thought. One of the things that I found so kind of disorienting, but also amazing when we got here was I realized I had no more professional ambition in me. Like all the things that I had set up, like maybe at some point in my life I will do, I had done at least once. Not for years, not for a long time, but I'd tried them. I kind of taste tested a bunch of them, and I'd gone into the I held a company like Idea. They're a design firm who, um, extols the virtues of creativity and living the creative life and creating the most beautiful and kind of integrated work environments. So I got to go and be in those spaces and then again at Apple. Lots of similarities, and also around high, high achievement. Always shooting for, going for the best, trying your hardest, leaping off into the abyss. And I did all of that. What did we say when we were talking the other day? It was like I went to the mountain, and I climbed to the top and looked around and just, uh the thought that came into my head was, I want to go home. Ultimately, what my soul called for was that sense of home more than being on a mountaintop. And I think we all have different things we're striving for or reaching for. But I think there's a feeling in that there's something going on in our world right now around questioning ourselves, asking, but why do we need to be all crammed into these cities and spending so much time, energy, carbon emissions, all of it, to be jetting back and forth between workspaces? Why do we have to be basing and wrapping our lives around our work? And I think our generation, that was one of the things we did. So many of us have moved and left where we grew up or gone to other places, because this was this idea. Like, you go to where you go to school, you go far abroad, somewhere for university. Then from there, you go to where you can find the right kind of work for yourself. And being in this phase now where I have a six year old and a nine year old and parents in their 70s, there's just nothing more important for me than being present to that time with them. And it wasn't worth it to stay on the top of a mountain, making amazing money and doing this creative work, but missing that with them. And I guess my questioning right now is, like, is it possible to bring those two into integration with each other? Can we bring parts of the mountain here, make our own little microcosm? It's a mountain of its own, and at the same time, keep our feet firmly planted on the ground so we can be good parents and good citizens and caring children as our parents age?
Matt: I had a follow up question, but.
Matt: I can't think of a better way to end this conversation than that point. Thank, um, you so much for your insights, and thank you so much for just walking us through your experience over.
Matt: The last 25 years.
Matt: It certainly is unique, but I think there's lots of pieces in there that we all can identify with. Whether it's creating this vision of your life that, once realized, is in some ways overwhelming, but in some ways disappointing. Um, the idea of the pursuit of home and stronger connection and back to a more simpler way of looking through the lens. Uh, I appreciate the fact that you've continued to challenge the things around you, and I'm seeing evidence of that in how you live your life today and the way you're going about raising a family. And it's those kind of attributes that ultimately serve people well as they try and make sense of this crazy world that we're in where it's just too easy to fall into the traditional, well, we've always done it this way, or this is what's expected of me and you. And I have seen countless examples of people who've adhered to that standard and ultimately to their own detriment. And I hope going forward, however, people decide to view their own paths, that they take a moment from this conversation to reflect upon. Are you where you wanted to be? And if you're not, to maybe take some courage from your conversation. Because amongst all the things that you've done, Ariel, it takes courage to ask the question when no one wants to raise their voice. And it takes courage to transition your life, move a family in the middle of a pandemic, to leave behind a high paying, highly sought after job for a farming role. And, uh, I'm not surprised that you've had success in doing it. I expect to see future success for you going forward. Thank you for your time today and for sharing a bit of your thoughts.
Ariel: Yeah, no, I'm super happy to. It's been great to chat, and I think it just also makes me think back to the beginning with our talk about that school environment and just how important it is to give kids those opportunities to feel, like, different. Types of skills or abilities have a place in the world but also to be given the opportunity to question and to be supported, to create these kind of programs where kids can have those experiences. I'm, um, just so glad that we were in that, uh, weird, wild and weird program that we were in. Whatever the four C's stand for.
Matt: Someone should put in the comment section of this podcast what those four C's are, because it would help Ariel.
Ariel: Uh, yeah, uh, we don't know.
Matt: But Ariel, thank you so much.
Ariel: Thank you. Bye.
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