How to Navigate the HR Technology Market - Susan Hanold

In today’s episode, I chat with Susan Hanold, HR HCM Strategy Executive, Speaker and Board Director, Formerly Vice President, Strategic Advisory Services, encompassing the organization’s talent, DEI and M&A practices for ADP, a Human Capital Management technology organization. 

Susa helped ADP establish their first Human Capital Management Consulting practice, working with executives at the likes of Chevron, Oracle, Cisco, Starbucks, Microsoft and Amazon on myriad transformational initiatives. And with her broad view of the market, we discussed the current state of the talent economy, and how organizations are responding to meet the challenge.

We later transitioned to a discussion regarding HR technologies, referencing Susan’s recent article in HR Professional Magazine: “Navigating a Crowded HR Technology Market”, sharing her tips on how to navigate the intricate HR Technology terrain.

It was far-reaching conversation that covered a number of topics relevant to today’s leaders. And I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did recording it.

Susan Hanold

 Susan Hanold is one of the Top Women in HR Technology, Founder of Plan Z Solutions, and a renowned talent strategist!

Susan made the leap from HCM Sales executive to Industry Thought Leader, and since 2004, Plan Z Solutions has been a trusted partner, providing invaluable technology and leadership development advice to clients in their HR strategy initiatives. Known as the Talent Doctor, Susan is an exceptional resource for anyone looking to enhance their teams and engagement strategies.

Susan Hanold serves as Vice President for Strategic Advisory Services and is responsible for working with clients to provide strategy, consultation and practical talent management solutions to help drive organizational change. She is a successful change leader with global experience in both the design and implementation of talent initiatives.

Susan Hanold has more than 20 years of results based leadership experience as an executive coach and organization development expert working with corporations to help them develop their talent strategy. She is a frequent speaker at industry conferences and events.

Susan Hanold is a graduate of Texas Tech University and holds a Bachelor of Science in Education. She also holds a Master of Science degree and Doctor of Philosophy in Leadership Development with a minor in Industrial Engineering from Texas A&M University. 

Susan Hanold
Plan Z Solutions

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Matt Burns

Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.

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Transcript

Dr. Susan Hanold: It. I feel like if from a business perspective, you should always focus on talent. If that truly is your people aspect, and it is the highest people say from a labor perspective, your biggest cost, well then focus on the people that should never go away. But how you focus on it and how you leverage and enable people to do their jobs the best they can, uh, then brings in people process technology, right?

Matt Burns: Constraints drive innovation. Hey everyone, it's Matt, here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss the innovative ways organizations and their leaders overcome complex issues at work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at our shiny new website, insidetheboxpodcast.com and on all of your favorite podcast platforms by searching Thinking Inside the Box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Susan Hennald, HR HCM Strategy Executive Speaker and Board Director. Susan is currently the Vice President of, uh, strategic Advisory Services, encompassing the organization's Talent, Dei and M A Practices for ADP, a human capital management technology organization. Susan helped ADP establish their first human capital management consulting practice, working with executives at the likes of Chevron, Oracle, Cisco, Starbucks, Microsoft, and Amazon on myriad transformational initiatives and with her broad view of the market. We discussed the current state of the town economy and how organizations are responding to meet today's challenges. And we later transitioned to a discussion regarding HR technologies themselves, referencing Susan's recent article in HR professional magazine, navigating a crowded HR technology market where Susan shared her tips on how to navigate the intricate technology terrain that is 2023 and beyond. It was a far reaching conversation that covered a number of topics relevant to today's leaders, and I hope you will enjoy our conversation as much as I did recording it. And now I bring you Susan Hannahld. Well, Susan, this is a long time coming, this conversation. We've been chatting over email, we've had a couple of chats, I think, over zoom, but uh, I'm looking forward to finally doing it for real today. How are you?

Dr. Susan Hanold: I'm doing great, I think.

Matt Burns: I'm looking forward to a number of topics that we're going to discuss before I get into those, maybe a bit about who Susan is, your background, your experiences, and what's led you to today. Yeah.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Ah, Matt, I'm so glad we're doing this a little bit. Background. I am Susan Hannah. I am the founder of Plan Z Solutions, which I've had about twelve years now, and I've just brought it back to life a few months ago. And my goal is to help companies around engagement, create high performing teams, and be a great coach them.

Matt Burns: You've had a number of really interesting experiences and that's why I wanted to have a chat with you today, because you talk about Human Capital Management in a number of different contexts. But the first one I want to explore is more of a sales context. And early in your career, you worked for a company, ADP. Most folks in the Human Capital space will know that brand so synonymous with payroll and Human Capital Management. Early in your career working with ADP, you were a talent sales executive and asked to build a sales territory plan in that new role. So I'm curious for you, what were those first few weeks were like? New industry, new role. Sounds like it was very design oriented. What was it like working for a leading organization in, uh, that time, uh, period?

Dr. Susan Hanold: Great question, Matt. You're taking me back in history here a little bit. Uh, it was a big decision for me. Uh, I started off as a consultant working for a big four and had worked outside organizations. Then I came in house to be an HR practitioner in a lot of different roles, uh, learning and development, OD, HR transformation and HRIS. And basically, when I went to go talk to my other half about taking this role, they're like, what, you've never been a salesperson before, why would you do this? And I think this is going to be one of my sort of leadership lessons in life, is always, don't be afraid to reinvent yourself. And so I took a big risk, a new position, a new skill for me, a new role, selling, uh, talent. And I know I was really passionate about, uh, talent, but I went ahead and I took the risk, and one of the best risks I've taken. And so in that role, when I think about it, was, don't be afraid to reinvent yourself. Well, there's a lot of stuff I didn't know, but there was a lot I did know. And I think always having a good coach, a good leader, so early in, uh, this is ten years now, ago, was looking back and saying having a good coach. So being coachable and that you have to one of the things you asked was, well, what do you have to do early on? Well, I had to learn a whole new vernacular system, right? I had to learn new systems, I had to learn a new culture. And that's like anything in a new company. But for me, it was I wanted to take risk. I wanted to sometimes go out of the box, sort of to the name of this podcast. You're letting me, uh, play with that a little bit, but out of the box because I didn't know what I didn't know. And I had a leader who let me go out of the box and take some risk. And some worked and some didn't. But what I did is I was able to hit my numbers. That first year exceeded my numbers. So the first year I exceeded my numbers, I hit the President's Club. You hit the top percent sales, which, as a salesperson, that's all you do. You're driven, you're driven by those numbers. And I was. But what I did and what I learned from that was it was a tough year, right? First two years learning, but hitting those numbers and excelling sets you up the stage for that next role.

Matt Burns: What's something about that transition that surprised you. You talked about having to learn a new set of skills. What's something about that move that may not have been expected as you made it.

Dr. Susan Hanold: So one is, I had to be relied upon by the sales team to be able to come in as a credible practitioner executive who could build credibility with a CHRO, a C suite very quickly. So that, for me, not necessarily put pressure on you, but it, uh, built that skill of how do you build quick rapport, how do you learn an industry very quickly, and then for me, was writing a territory plan. I'd never wrote a territory plan before, but what it taught me was treat it like a business, write your plan like a business and run it like a business. And that's exactly what I did. So you wanted to start to work with people who were high performers. The salespeople that went out there and got out there, you went out there with them. And so drivers want drivers. And that synergy was, uh, contagious. And so for me, that whole piece of learning on a quick, uh, very quickly, but also having the ability that somebody allowed me to do that too.

Matt Burns: You mentioned running your practice like a business, and obviously it's a unique time today as we sit here to talk about running a business. We've just gone through a multi year pandemic. There's obviously economic headwinds in most developed economies right now, and in the HCM space in particular, we're hearing things like artificial intelligence and the ongoing push towards digital transformation. I'm curious, as you look at the broader landscape today, maybe just a bit about the things that you're seeing, the things that stand out for you.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Yeah. So as a talent strategist, or my nickname, right, the Talent Doctor is all things talent. And when I think back about two years ago, you would have heard words like, oh, uh, it's the great resignation, it's a great prioritization, it's the war for talent. Right. All these sort of tags that we put on talent. I feel like if, from a business perspective, you should always focus on talent. If that truly is your people aspect, and it is the highest people, say, from a labor perspective, your biggest cost, well, then focus on the people. That should never go away. But how you focus on it, and how you leverage and enable people to do their jobs the best they can, uh, then brings in people, process technology. Right. And so that brings up, then, the technology piece you're talking about, which AI. But when I think back to sort of what I'm seeing in the talent market in the HCM world is things are starting to blend together, which I think is good. So less of the silo, more of the blending. RM and learning come together. Things are kind of coming together. And where skills may have been only in LMS, it may be coming down to talent acquisition. So I am seeing that happen, and I'm also seeing what I would have said years ago. Attract to you remember, hire to retire, or attract, engage and retain some of those words. Well, now I think of it as attract to alumni, because I think of it almost as a sustainable workforce. Today. This workforce has to be continual, um, from talent, ecosystem. Those are some of the changes I'm seeing it now. Focus on talent always. It's not just the great resignation, but now I'm seeing that shift to AI. So how can technology enable your labor, your talent workforce? And, uh, I was just the other day talking to a hiring manager, and as I was talking to her, I was very surprised. What I'm not hearing is in the interviews asking about the skill of AI, because any C suite I'm talking to now is how they're talking about how they're using it to get their work done. But why are we not now hiring and asking for that skill set, um, for some of these HR roles? So I was quite surprised when I was talking, when I said, well, why didn't you ask what their recent skill set was on AI and get their perspective? And they hadn't even thought it wasn't even a core interview question.

Matt Burns: Yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting space. You talk about talent, I mean, having a number of guests on recently we had Julia Polycon, uh, chief economist for ZipRecruiter, who talked a lot about macroeconomic trends. And we spoke mostly in the context of North America, Western Europe, where, demographically speaking, the workforce is aging and there are more people every single day who leave the workforce than enter it. And that's just the trend that's going to continue for the next 15 years, uh, unless we have some massive changes in immigration numbers. So, that being said, with the workforce aging that rapidly, to your point, we're going to have a harder time, uh, competing for talent. We're going to have a harder time matching the skill sets that are available in the talent marketplace to what we actually need in organizations, AI being one of those. I think we're going to struggle to your point to adapt to what do we actually need and what's actually available, and connecting those dots that traditionally has not been a strength where we actually have a good synergy between what are the frontline skills needed to execute in the business, and then what do our recruiters and talent. Individuals either recruit or search or train for. Um, this is going to expose some of those challenges. Uh, AI is taking up so much space in every possible vertical that I talk with and every size of organization that, to your point, if it's not embedded as part of the conversation, it's, um, I think a miss. And even if that to your point, even if the question is around the individual's level of knowledge, curiosity, maturity around it, I think it speaks a lot. Uh, OpenAI came to the market in September of 2022. We now sit here. It's more than a year later. So if somebody has not taken an interest in artificial intelligence, that's probably a pretty good predictor of how on board they're going to be for a company transition that involves artificial intelligence. Not that you want to prejudge individuals, but as you know, Susan, things are moving very quickly, so we want to be mindful of where people are at on that change journey. You're talking to leaders, uh, who are at multiple inflection points on that journey. Some that are all in on AI, all in on digital, all in on technology, big data. And then I'm sure you speak to some folks that are still struggling with the transition into a digital world. They see it maybe as impersonal. They see it perhaps as unnecessary expense. I'm, um, curious about how you shift your perspective, how you shift your feedback or coaching and counsel to individuals that may be at different levels of maturity when it comes to the digital maturity of their business.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Yeah. And I look at it, man, this is such a big topic. And I like that podcast, too. I've been watching a lot of the podcasts that you've had on this topic, and do you see AI as an asset or a threat, and how do you approach it? And I think of it for me, myself, as a learner. I want to continue to learn and evolve, uh, to learn and not be sort of antiquated. Right. You always want to know the latest, how can I do my job better, more efficient? Uh and I've watched some of the other podcasts you did where it talked I think it was Yurik and, uh, about, uh they talked about removing the administrative components of so I think we're early on and so companies that are at different maturity levels when it comes to AI, I think it's like anything. We went through cybersecurity, we went through talent, we went through de. I right. We're kind of going through each one of these. And you have to say, where am I on the maturity level? And then, how do I first off, what is it? Define it. What are some measurements for it, and then how am I going to embed it through my organization? Put some guardrails on it. I've, um, been using it in my current role for almost every client I've worked with right now, literally, with the C suite, we were able to create a sustainability mission statement within 30 minutes with the C suite right there and get a draft. Um, I just was talking to, uh, a client here right before this, where they were drafting something, and they actually, instead of using it to help draft it, they actually used them to help check some of their work. So I think people are starting to now, as we're starting to share how we're using it in an open and transparent way, because some people are kind of scared, I think, to share, oh, I'm using it like, OOH, it's secret. And now, I think, as we get on public, I think one of the things, too, with technology is I think about this. You talked about the multi generational workforce was the attract to alumni. Because I think about, do you have technology that's going to enable folks to do their jobs better or to get that talent? So this is a little bit off your AI question, but I think back to how do you make it easy to bring talent back in? So if somebody left back then with the boomer anger, right, or you wanted to get that, you think you talked about the boomers leaving, the people leaving, and they did leave. Maybe they want to come back, I don't know. But I do know a lot of people have retired, and I've even had some friends who have left, and I've been speaking at a lot of, uh, university alumni groups. So those folks are looking for networking opportunities. They're looking for who's doing what. And this is a great way to grow, build community and network. But the technology, if it's not easy for somebody to come back into your organization. So, for example, I had a friend who left, and the company called her back in and said, hey, would you like to come back in? And she's like, M, I'm kind of curious about it, maybe part time. But then they said, well, we're going to need a resume, and we're going to need you to fill out this form and then go online and do this. And she literally was with the company for 15 years, and she's a high performer and a leader. So my question is, she literally said, you're kidding me. No way. Why don't you have my talent profile? Why don't you have my information? Go to LinkedIn. Right? So we've heard this story over and over again.

Matt Burns: Sadly, yes. Uh, and you're right. It's about thinking about it more from a user experience perspective.

Dr. Susan Hanold: My friend said no.

Matt Burns: Yeah, and that's a shame. It's a missed opportunity to bring somebody into the organization where, to your point, it's a failure to adapt for the present day circumstances, where the idea of bringing somebody in at 22 after four years of university and then asking them for 40 years of employment, that doesn't exist anymore. We have to look at nontraditional forms of employment, and that could include freelancers and gig based employees and alumni on contracts, part time gigs. And we have to stop looking at work in nine to five increments, FTE increments, and more in terms of fluidity around tasks and broad projects and broad initiatives as an accumulation of tasks that need to be completed. And it's a shift for human capital leaders, both those in the profession, but also those who just manage human capital. And I think it's a really interesting point, because alumni is a question that's going to come up more and more, especially with knowledge based workers, as people want more flexibility and fluidity in their lives. They don't want to be tied to a desk five days a week or 40 hours a week plus, but they're okay to chip in a couple of days a week if they're in the flow of spending more time with their families or friends or Hobies or volunteer interests, whatever that might be. And I think that is, um, a level of flexibility that organizations traditionally have shied away from for fear of it not being equitable. But I think we're now past the point where that becomes a luxury statement, and we now need to be more flexible and creative to bring in that top level talent.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Well, I kind of picked on that hiring manager who didn't ask about AI, but I think the very first question that I'm hearing now is they ask, well, are you willing to work in the office? Are you willing to work in the office for three they it's like on eggshells. Uh, so I'm going to ask you a question, Matt. Um, and this question is going to be and literally, this is exactly how they do it's very dramatic. I'm going to ask you if you're okay, but this role, we're going to need you to come in for three or four days. Are you okay with that? And then it might even lead to, well, how far away are you from the office? Our office is in blank blank, and how far are you to get to that office every day? And then it's a pause. Very interesting. We're not even to the AI, because I still think we're on this hybrid 2.0 a little bit. Right. So we've got this multigenerational workforce. We've got, uh, now I need you to come back in the office, potentially, right? Because I think I listened to one of your podcasts, too, that was about Elon Musk and his quote about everybody come in. Right. That one had me going. But I still think that's a struggle.

Matt Burns: Culturally, I agree with you, and I think the idea of letting go, uh, I will use it in that context, because I think in large part, my perspective is anchored in the fact that I've worked ten plus years remotely, even my last five years as a corporate leader. Most of my team was not in my office. We were not colocated. Was there some disadvantages to that? Absolutely. It wasn't as easy to rally my team around at a moment's notice and to get easy consensus with just walking around and serving by a show of hands. And I wouldn't have traded it because I had a better net, um, with which to draw an amazing group of talented people, that if I had drawn a net of that group of people from the geography that I'm talking about, I probably wouldn't have been able to assemble that collection of talented people. And that's not to disrespect the local community. It's just when you open up the geography, you're able to bring in different perspectives. And in an HR team, where you have in our case, we supported multiple countries, you need to have a global perspective to global problems. And, um, while it was more work, I ultimately found it of benefit. But I also understand the leader that says, hey, I'd rather you just be in the office five days a week, because I prefer that. For me, it requires that leader to be more intentional about delegation and about follow up and about communication, because they can't rely on the and I'm m using this term probably loosely lazy bump into you in the hallway to have a conversation. You actually have to be thoughtful and planful about that. But I don't think that that leader's discomfort with that change is enough of a reason to inconvenience their employees to the point where the vast majority that I speak to want more flexibility. And maybe it's not. We're working remote five days a week from a beach in Bora Bora, but it might mean not having to do a commute that's an hour each way, five days a week. So I think, uh, to your point, there are absolutely organizations that are still struggling with what does work look like in a post pandemic landscape. And I think that's going to be an ongoing evolution. I think you're going to see companies go back and forth and shift and EB and flow. And I'll be paying particular attention to companies that take a leading approach on it one way or the other, because I think there's something to be learned. What I hope happens, regardless of where organizations end up, is that they are transparent to your point with what they expect from their workforces. Where I've seen the biggest pushback is in the case of organizations, and I believe I'd rather not quote this but there was a financial institution in the United States. I would mention the name, but I don't want to. Get it wrong. Um who committed to their employees to offer hybrid work and then all of a sudden didn't about change when they brought a new CEO in who said no. Everyone's back to the office. And that created a significant challenge around employee morale and trust. That is an absolute death nail for employee culture. I would rather avoid seeing situations like that understanding companies have the right to manage the way they want to manage. And while I certainly would choose one way or another myself, um, I just hope we have to get that transparency so that people can make informed decisions about where they work, because the level of variance will be pretty significant in the future.

Dr. Susan Hanold: And, uh, at least they ask, right, in this hiring process, at least they're asking, hey, just up front, this is the deal. So it can be a deal breaker or not for somebody. So, again, transparency. And you can make that informed decision that is part of the talent landscape today, I think that will be going forward, back to your sort of digital transformation AI question I think too, about from the talent landscape is how do I quickly learn the skill of AI? So from a reskilling, upskilling, leveling up, whatever I need to grow myself. Because I always say, don't be afraid to reinvent yourself. And part of reinvention is learning new tools and being competitive with the market, right? Know the market and what is the market willing to be and what tools is it using? But from a marketplace perspective with AI, just, uh, the other day I flew somewhere and I took an eight module training course on AI. On the plane. I couldn't even believe it. I literally sat there taking notes, like I was, like, doing a tutorial. I'm like, got some new props here, you know what? So I did that for myself, and it was super easy, but I had to do that on my own. Where am I seeing sort of that education happening within organizations? You mentioned about that maturity level. I think that's still a bridge to be crossed, because as I'm talking to I was talking to a client this morning about their It ecosystem. And right now they've gone out as they're growing very quickly and doing acquisitions. There's not that plan yet. It's not that thoughtful. It's more about we need to get these systems up and running. We're trying to get our feet off the ground. There might be seven systems that are disparate the typical thing we've seen before. We got to get them integrated, we got to run a business, and then we have not looped that in. And then they just hired a director of It. Well, is that director of It going to be able to wear that hat? Now, these are smaller organizations, but, uh, as you get more mature, I really feel like this needs to be more embedded into the conversation.

Matt Burns: Hey, everyone, it's Matt here. I hope you're enjoying today's conversation. And before we continue, I want to update you on my latest creative project, this Week at Work. Every Friday at 07:00 a.m Pacific Standard Time. That's 10:00 a.m. Eastern and 03:00. P.m GMT. My good friend Chris Rainey of HR leaders and I discuss the latest trending topics on the minds of executives globally. From organizational culture to technology and the future of work. We cover it all, and we invite some of our favorite colleagues to join us, from Dave Ulrich to Whitney Johnson, and executives from iconic brands such as NASA, Krispy Kreme, and WebMD. What can I say? We like to keep things interesting. And if you've been following us for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun partnership chris and I have developed over years podcasting together. We're not afraid to be real, share our own challenges, and ask the tough questions. Joining? Well, that part's easy. Follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell icon on the top right of my profile, and you'll get notified when we go live. And now back to our discussion. I totally agree with you, and I think it becomes, uh, an important conversation at day one, but it gets more important as you get larger and larger in size. And we both have experience working in large enterprise organizations where the level of complexity, when things aren't integrated well, is material, and it ultimately creates additional FTE and creates thousands, if not millions, of dollars of extra cost. And when you talk about things like AI, it only exacerbates the problem of incongruent and inconsistent, uh, data, because AI relies upon a consistent flow of data to be able to be its most effective. And if you have 15 different systems not speaking to each other, and you're running CSV uploads and downloads to make things work in the background, those are going to be very costly problems. And I hear organizations every single day who are in some version of evolution on that. Again, that trajectory. I know that for you in particular, the idea of the broader HR technology marketplace is passionate, and that you spend a lot of time thinking about it and seeing what's out there. In fact, recently you wrote an article navigating the crowded HR technology marketplace in HR Professional magazine. And I'm curious, what things have you seen recently, um, that have shown up for you, that have caught your attention? And what should buyers of HCM technology be looking at today?

Dr. Susan Hanold: Yeah, it was a good exercise for me. I had, uh, three startup companies ask, m me, we're smaller companies. How do we get noticed out here today? Um, we don't have big sales teams. We're not out there necessarily. If you Google, whatever, passive recruiting, my company is not going to come up. How do I get recognized? It gave me a chance to go out and talk to some sales leaders and look at what I would have traditionally done. Kind of like we started out the beginning of the podcast with ten years ago. Where did it go? And how has sort of the HCM technology market evolved? And I went through and I said, how can I do a reboot or refresh on the steps. I would normally go through. And how do you keep a company or how do you get out of status quo? Like, I'm just going to make no change, right? And I was just working with a company a few weeks ago, and the HR leader said, uh, I've worked with all these big systems, but now I've got this other system and a smaller company, and I'm just going to stay where I am. And I'm like, oh, could have hurt me. I was like, oh, cringe. Because you're like, they knew what was possible, but they were going to accept where they were. And that comes up to your question too, earlier, about the change, the ability to change and why change and do I need to change? And so when I went through these four steps, one of the things that I learned was things like what you're doing these podcasts, understanding and talking and hearing other stories from other people. The buying journey has changed today. Why you leverage salespeople today? They've had to change. There's inside sales. There's chat GBT that's doing your RFP. So just some of the tips I've learned is identify some trusted resources. Know some people you can go to today because a lot of those demos and things are going to be on companies websites. You can go do that demo on your own time. Learn what you like and you don't like, but listen to things like this with the podcast and the marketplace. Talk to other vendors too, outside in that ecosystem that are partners with these companies and talk to them, what it's like to work with them. Um, that would be one is always identify those trusted resources. The second one would be is know what problem you're trying to solve for. I mean, that's just basic businesses, right? Know the problem you're trying to solve for. Identify some trusted resources. And then, uh, the last piece is, I hate to talk bad about salespeople, but I would say use them as an advocate. So know when they've got your back in a way. So do they know the competition? Do they know the landscape? Are they going to give you the information that you want in order to help you than just push a product? So, um, I would say now the sales folks that are out there right now are asking the same question. It's completely different. Where I would have been in a territory where I would have gone and ate lunch and broke bread every Friday with the sales team. I couldn't tell you. Now in the hybrid virtual world with, uh, how things are dispersed today, how the sales cycle has really changed. So when I revamped it, I said, you know what, one is getting started, know the problem you're trying to solve. Two have trusted resources. The third one is on the buying process. Leverage your salesperson in the right way. And the fourth one is the decision time always have data. So if you need to have business transportation, build that case for change with ROI, bottom line, how are you going to save cost and change? So you can probably relate to some of those.

Matt Burns: Yeah, there's so much good stuff there. And I echo all of what you're saying. I think I'll double click on the last point, which is, going into a transformation, you want to identify the potential quantifiable value that's possible to unlock with the transformation. And for those folks who are going to say there's qualitative benefit in transformation, I completely agree. Uh, and I have not been part of a successful business case that's been built where the company would have to invest a significant amount of incremental money to power a digital transformation. There's generally an expectation that there's going to be some offsets around efficiencies, that there's going to be some benefits around, um, increases, either in terms of outputs or in terms of targets. Um, and that's all good stuff. The idea of using technology to power a future state to move towards a future state is ultimately what we're talking about here. And the opportunity for us to be part of the conversation is critical. And I, uh, lament the earlier part of your answer around the individual who'd opted out, because that's just so counter to my DA when there's opportunity.

Dr. Susan Hanold: I couldn't believe it. I had right there in front of me, if I had not asked that person right there so she was going to be quiet. She's not going to say anything. So then it brings up the point of you've got to go to the decision makers who's willing to make that change and who are those key stakeholders who are going to make the change? So, uh, that was a big point, but that was a good exercise for me to write that article and to therapeutically go through what is changing in the world today, because it just applies to anything today. You're doing to think through how is it changing and be open, that you have to change on the learn new skills. You have to adapt your way, because it's not going to be the same.

Matt Burns: And I get it. You and I both know that some of the individuals most affected but during the pandemic, in a corporate context, were those in HR who took on a significant more, uh, responsibility during the course of especially the early days. But as they went through transitions and changing workplaces and health and safety and wellness and all the things that made HR important before, but had a spotlight, shone on it in 2020, 2021, and so on and so forth, there are some individuals that just need a break. I get all that. I understand. And I also believe that there is an understanding we need to have that some of the challenges that we're about to face, demographically speaking, in terms of having to ask people to do more with less can be solved for in part by using technology. And individuals and organizations and teams that are not proactive in that pursuit mhm are going to find that transition more painful once it's pushed upon you. My approach to technology. And let me be very clear, I'm not a technologist. I can't write a line of code, I'm not a data scientist. But what I am is a curious, um, end user who wants to ensure the technology can be deployed in a way that makes the most sense. And for the last significant overhaul that I did as a CHRO, we actually went Best of Breed because we were limited in budget and we had a significant mandate to achieve. We had to buy our first ATS platform, our first LMS platform, our first compensation platform, our first claims management platform, and look at a payroll platform and look at a WFM platform that had been with the organization for over ten years and look at that horizon. And at the same time we were mindful that the year after us, it was planning a three year ERP project. So we had a very limited window with which to make an HCM transformation possible. So we went about our approach and bought Best of Breed and hired a solutions architect who tied together our technologies on the back end and ensured their integration with our current ERP and eventually our future ERP stack. So that we had an ecosystem of people analytics flowing within the business broader process, but that required us to be creative and agile and a little bit ambitious because most people I would talk to would say purchasing five new technologies and implementing them in twelve months is not the most fastest way to success. But to your point, we have to be okay with the idea of going through change. Because if we're not, we're going to find ourselves in a position where the change becomes more painful for all the stakeholders involved in it. And it doesn't have to be that way. So I appreciate your perspective on that.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Well, you made me think of something since you gave that example from the Best of Breed example was know what your lane is and what you absolutely needed, but then what might need to fill some gaps that company may not have provided that vendor. So can that be filled through niche, specialty? And that's where the whole thing, this is how this whole presentation started out or this article was, because how do you find those smaller specialized niche if I'm filling a very special business need that you need that adds on to the ecosystem, that's going to be your plugin, right? So just knowing that that's out there. I think what I've learned too is that ecosystem has grown tremendously, um, in order to know what's in your lane and what it takes to make that full comprehensive suite, and um, then the last one you mentioned was you had your plan, you kind of built that plan out. Well, one of the things I've been busy doing is doing a lot of whiteboarding, which is really just helping companies say, I've got my tech stack of all these, uh, things, but I've never taken the time to really whiteboard and put down everything I have and let's just throw it out there and let's put a two to three year roadmap out there and let's tie the cost to it. To me, I still am finding that benefit as a benefit to companies, uh, almost weekly. I'm running across that, uh, as an opportunity just because they just need somebody to help them with that. They just don't take the time to step back and say, I've got the time to do this, and I need somebody who can facilitate it, uh, for me.

Matt Burns: Well, I think you actually just triggered my next question. So you might have gotten a chance. I don't know if you can see HM, my interview guide. I'm staring at it here, but you triggered the next question. Wonderfully. So thank you for doing that, which is right now you're spending the bulk of your time facilitating conversations with senior level leaders, boards, senior level executives, et cetera. I'm just curious, as you think about the collection of those conversations, are there any trends that stand out for you? Are there questions that come up on a consistent basis or perhaps challenges that face these groups, regardless of their industry, regardless of their size, regardless of their maturity, any common threats?

Dr. Susan Hanold: I've taken the last couple of years for myself to grow from a board perspective. So getting board certified and learning how boards work. And what I am learning, uh, as a coach right now is I'm seeing that trend still, how important it is for a president and a CEO and the board to align and how they can work, um, through working together. So you need that leadership, high performing team to start at the top and then build down to that second level leadership level. So, for myself, I've seen succession planning and leadership pipeline coming up now more, uh, that I really do want to build. That second, during the pandemic, we were just trying to keep people right, keep people keep stable. Now I actually am hearing succession planning, which to me is a positive sign of now we actually want to start to build some bench strength that's exciting, which is bringing back sort of how do you do that, right, uh, without being biased, and have those calibration sessions and build a bench. Uh, which the second thing I'm seeing too, is coaching. Just the value of coaching, really, uh, at, ah, the executive level, um, having a coach. I've seen some leaders now have multiple coaches, so I would just say coaching is still one, and then the third one is just on the softer skills. During the pandemic, we talked about just, hey, how are you doing, Matt? And you'd say, hey, fine, but really, I really do care how you're doing. So it's leveraging my emotional intelligence skills. So I am seeing that raise within empathy and skill training on that softer side. So we spoke a lot today about the technology and AI, but what's really impressing me, too, is on the leadership development side, is people really needing to learn the managers learning that emotional intelligence and empathy and that skill set.

Matt Burns: That's great. And I think it speaks to the symbiosis needed to your point between technology and humans. I think that we get excited about the technology, and we've talked a lot about it in today's conversation, but none of it's possible without humans. And ultimately, we hope that it will free us to spend more time relating and connecting and understanding one another. At least that's the hope I have for technology like AI. I think it's a wonderful opportunity to do that. Susan, um, I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate the breadth and depth of your expertise in having it. Um, for those folks that want to connect with you offline, where's the best place to reach you?

Dr. Susan Hanold: Uh, you can connect with me on LinkedIn or you can go to Handled at Planzies Solutions. And I forgot to mention, Matt, if by chance anybody wants from that article, the HCM buying checklist, they can reach out to me, and I'm happy to send that to I'm happy to connect with folks.

Matt Burns: We'll include the HCM buying checklist in the show notes of the podcast as well, so folks that are interested can find it there. We'll also include Susan's contact information so you can reach out to her at a later date. Susan, thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Susan Hanold: Thank you, matt.

Matt Burns: Bento HR is a digital transformation consultancy working at the intersection of strategy, technology and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms, from strategic planning and alignment to technology procurement, implementation, and integration, along with organizational design, process re, engineering, and change management. With our proven track record of working with complex high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience and value. For more information, check us out@bentohr.com.