In today’s episode, I chat with Kevin McDonald, Vice President, People Services & Insights for The E.W. Scripps Company. Kevin has over 25 years of experience working with large and mid-market companies in HR operations, technology strategy, vendor governance, implementations, and merger & acquisition integration.
In addition to his professional accomplishments, Kevin serves as the varsity assistant coach for the girls’ basketball team at Fairfield High School and volunteers as a Show Choir “tech dad”. He also serves on the Fatherhood Committee for the Talbert House and on the board of the Purple Monkey Project.
His varied background was the basis of a really engaging discussion covering much ground. From the impacts of systems thinking and project management to HR digital transformation and the nuances of coaching business professionals and amateur athletes.
We wrap, chatting about the future - for Kevin, his organization, and, more broadly, the HR profession. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did recording it.
Kevin McDonald
With a primary focus on HR technology & service delivery, business process outsourcing governance, and business process transformation, Kevin has spent the last twenty years focused on maximizing the value of his company’s technology and service provider relationships along with significant M&A work helping Scripps through three transformational events in his 16+ years with the company.
Kevin spent the first 11 years of his career in multiple capacities at Fifth Third Bank. He led the development of the Bank’s first benefits open enrollment website in 1997 and was on the core team who implemented the Lawson HRIS. Primarily responsible for core HR, Benefits and Self Service, Kevin also played a key role as an SME for many other work streams.
Kevin has served as the Vice Chair of the HROA Board of Trustees from 2012-2013 and was a founding member of the ADP COS Client Advisory Board. Kevin was also named an HRO Today HRO Practitioner Superstar in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016 and currently serves on various advisory boards with OneSource Virtual.
In his personal life, Kevin and his wife, Sandra, along with two daughters, Cameron (23) and Courtney (17) reside in Fairfield, OH.
Social links:
LinkedIn
Scripps
Purple Monkey Project
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Matt Burns
Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.
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In today’s episode, I chat with Kevin McDonald, Vice President, People Services & Insights for The E.W. Scripps Company. Kevin has over 25 years of experience working with large and mid-market companies in HR operations, technology strategy, vendor governance, implementations, and merger & acquisition integration.
In addition to his professional accomplishments, Kevin serves as the varsity assistant coach for the girls’ basketball team at Fairfield High School and volunteers as a Show Choir “tech dad”. He also serves on the Fatherhood Committee for the Talbert House and on the board of the Purple Monkey Project.
His varied background was the basis of a really engaging discussion covering much ground. From the impacts of systems thinking and project management to HR digital transformation and the nuances of coaching business professionals and amateur athletes.
We wrap, chatting about the future - for Kevin, his organization, and, more broadly, the HR profession. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much as I did recording it.
Kevin McDonald
With a primary focus on HR technology & service delivery, business process outsourcing governance, and business process transformation, Kevin has spent the last twenty years focused on maximizing the value of his company’s technology and service provider relationships along with significant M&A work helping Scripps through three transformational events in his 16+ years with the company.
Kevin spent the first 11 years of his career in multiple capacities at Fifth Third Bank. He led the development of the Bank’s first benefits open enrollment website in 1997 and was on the core team who implemented the Lawson HRIS. Primarily responsible for core HR, Benefits and Self Service, Kevin also played a key role as an SME for many other work streams.
Kevin has served as the Vice Chair of the HROA Board of Trustees from 2012-2013 and was a founding member of the ADP COS Client Advisory Board. Kevin was also named an HRO Today HRO Practitioner Superstar in 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016 and currently serves on various advisory boards with OneSource Virtual.
In his personal life, Kevin and his wife, Sandra, along with two daughters, Cameron (23) and Courtney (17) reside in Fairfield, OH.
Social links:
LinkedIn
Scripps
Purple Monkey Project
Thinking Inside the Box
Constraints drive innovation. We tackle the most complex issues related to work & culture. And if you enjoy the work we’re doing here, consider giving us a 5-star rating, leaving a comment & subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content & really helps amplify our message.
LinkedIn
Website
Apple Podcasts
Google Podcasts
Spotify
Stitcher
Pocket Cast
Matt Burns
Matt Burns is an award-winning executive, social entrepreneur and speaker. He believes in the power of community, simplicity & technology.
LinkedIn
Twitter
Kevin McDonald: Those are the kinds of uses for AI that we're exploring right now. We've deployed that to some extent, continue to try to look for things there. I think there are a lot of opportunities in learning and leadership development in terms of maybe it's not chat GPT, but it's something of that effect,
Kevin McDonald: Of there's a lot of stuff that.
Kevin McDonald: We need to do from a compliance standpoint. Hey, write me a learning course that covers this, right? You can use AI for that. Like, how cool would that be? How easy would that be?
Matt Burns: Constraints drive innovation.
Matt Burns: Hey, everyone, it's Matt.
Matt Burns: Here for another episode of Thinking Inside the Box, a show where we discuss the innovative ways organizations and their leaders overcome complex issues at work. If you're interested in checking out our other content, you can find us at our shiny new website, insidetheboxpodcast.com and on all of your favorite podcast platforms by searching Thinking Inside the Box. And if you enjoy the work we're doing here, consider leaving us a five star rating, a comment and subscribing. It ensures you get updated whenever we release new content and really helps amplify our message. In today's episode, I chat with Kevin McDonald, the vice president of people services and insights for the EW Scripts company. Kevin has over 25 years of experience.
Matt Burns: Working with large and midmarket companies in.
Matt Burns: HR operations, technology strategy, vendor governance implementations, and merger and acquisition integration. In addition to his varied professional accomplishments, kevin serves as the varsity assistant coach for the girls basketball team at Fairfield High School and volunteers as a tech dad for the show choir. He also serves on the fatherhood committee for the Talbot house and on the board of the purple monkey project. His very background was the basis of a really engaging discussion covering a lot of ground, from the impacts of system thinking and project management, to HR digital transformation and the future of work, to the nuances of coaching business professionals and amateur athletes. We wrap, as we often do, talking about our plans for the future and our thoughts about it, and for Kevin, his organization, and more broadly, the HR profession. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, recording it. And now I bring you Kevin McDonald. Kevin, this is going to be a fun conversation. I'm looking forward to it.
Kevin McDonald: Absolutely.
Matt Burns: Thanks for joining today. Before we get into the conversation itself, I'd love to learn a bit more about you, your background and experiences and.
Matt Burns: What'S led you to today.
Kevin McDonald: Yeah, so grew up, in Cincinnati.
Kevin McDonald: Product of a single mother. Bounced around the city quite a bit.
Kevin McDonald: Grown up. She managed apartments, so we just kind of lived wherever she was working at the time. Didn't really know what I wanted to.
Kevin McDonald: Do coming out of high school. Entered the workforce right away, right out.
Kevin McDonald: Of high school, and then was a kind of nontraditional college student.
Kevin McDonald: Went at night, but just kind of.
Kevin McDonald: Got lucky and got into Human resources. I just applied for a job at.
Kevin McDonald: A local bank that was headquartered here, 5th, 3rd bank.
Kevin McDonald: And the position they had open was in the employee file room. So thus the entrance into human resources. And now almost a 30 year career. But that's kind of how I got into Human resources. But I spent almost twelve years at Fifth, third, and then been at Scripts now for a little over 16. So two employers, ah, both in Cincinnati.
Kevin McDonald: Met my wife when I was, I.
Kevin McDonald: Think I was 20. Got married a couple of years after that. Moved to Fairfield, which is where I live now. just north of town. As you can tell, I'm in my home office. I wish my work office could look like this too, but in my home office and we've lived here for 20 plus years. I have two daughters, 23 and 17. So my 17 year old just started.
Kevin McDonald: Her senior year of high school.
Kevin McDonald: Other things I do kind of outside.
Kevin McDonald: Of work, I coach at our high school. I coach girls basketball.
Kevin McDonald: entering my twelveTH year doing that.
Kevin McDonald: I'm on the board of a local.
Kevin McDonald: Nonprofit called The Purple Monkey Project. It's a great nonprofit doing a lot of good things in the community. You can check us out@purplemonkeyproject.org, learn all about it. Tech dad for my daughter's show choir at Fairfield. Which basically means I'm like a show choir roadie. We move stuff and set it up and move it back. That's actually a lot of fun. Great group of guys that, do.
Kevin McDonald: That also serve on the, committee.
Kevin McDonald: Which, you know, I mentioned coming from kind of a fatherless home. One of the purposes of the fatherhood committee is to reconnect dads with their kids and teaching them father skills, but also give them legal help and other help in just reconnecting and being part of their kids lives. So, pretty busy, outside of work as well, but all good stuff, all.
Kevin McDonald: Worthy uses of time. Yeah.
Matt Burns: No, I couldn't agree. And you're obviously very busy. And one thing that we connected on off air was just a lot of people have had the experience that you've had and not many people have taken that experience and turned it into let's give back and let's try. And I don't want to say right or wrong, but really try. And to your point, invest in the next generation such that people can have a different experience. The obvious question is where does it come from? I think that's pretty evident. But this late into it, what keeps you still passionate about the idea of giving back? Because you've been doing it's not like you did it for a summer and then you've been doing this now for most of your life. You've been giving back in the community, not for profits. Coaching public service is a big part of who you are in your DNA, what keeps you passionate about public service as you continue to kind of advance throughout your career.
Kevin McDonald: Yeah, so I've been fortunate enough to have some amazing people in my life that I've met through work and outside of work as well. But one of those is, Lisa Knutson, who is actually our chief operating officer now at Script.
Kevin McDonald: She's held many roles here.
Kevin McDonald: She's truly a mentor of mine and somebody that I've gone to for advice and help throughout the years. Whether it's, oh my gosh, I'm 22 years old and I'm getting ready to have a baby. Like, what do I do to hey, there's this other opportunity out there for me or should I keep coaching or should I just everything. Anything and everything. And I would tell you first thing, just for everybody, if you have somebody.
Kevin McDonald: Like that in your life, do not take that for granted.
Kevin McDonald: They are just worth their weight and gold. But one of the things she would always say to me is as I.
Kevin McDonald: Was trying to make a decision, was.
Kevin McDonald: Highest and best use, what's your highest and best use? And the other thing that I've learned just through leadership courses, I've kind of learned to name it, but something I've always felt was, just this idea of servant leadership. That the leader is not always the one with the authority or it's the one that's doing good.
Kevin McDonald: What can I do for you?
Kevin McDonald: That to me, those two things are.
Kevin McDonald: I always look at things through those lenses.
Kevin McDonald: I made a decision and ah, my previous two bosses, I've kind of communicated this to that, hey, look, while my kids are still in the house and doing things, my daughter's a cheerleader, she's in show choir. My older daughter was in tennis and basketball and just all kinds of other things. And I said I'm all in for them. And if that costs me opportunities at work because I can't maybe travel as much, then I'm okay with that. I'm okay sacrificing a little my career because this time it's finite. There's only so much of it and it's gone. So just kind of being all in for what they're doing. And so some of those opportunities have come from them being involved in things and me saying, hey, I want to be involved and they want me involved. So again, I can think about that again. My youngest is a senior now, I can think about that after this year.
Matt Burns: Well said.
Matt Burns: I mean, I think when we look back on our lives and reflect upon the experiences that we had, the project we did when we were 35 for work is probably not going to resonate as much as the years spent coaching your daughters and lugging boxes upstairs for show choir competitions and for appearances. That's the stuff that builds happiness and builds cohesiveness in your family. And as you pointed out earlier, somebody who didn't have the benefit of that, as much as you probably would have liked to be able to now give that to your children, I mean, it's such a wonderful gift for both them and for you. So bravo for you for taking that step and making that investment of your time. It's a difficult situation that we find ourselves in, because to your point, there's constant pressure, especially in executive roles and large organizations, to work longer hours to commit more. And certainly in the era that you and I grew up in, from a workplace perspective, there was definitely a halo effect around those who spent more time in the office, were perceived as being more committed or more all in. And those people tended to get the opportunities because of adjacency. And as a consequence of that, people who chose their life in some ways often did so at the expense of their careers. So as you and I were talking offline doing research for this conversation, I was pleased to kind of follow your career, because it seems like despite the fact that you've made what I think is the right choice, it really hasn't affected your career. From an upper mobility perspective. You've still been able to deliver lots of value where you've gone. And, you mentioned earlier a nontraditional background. You're absolutely the definition of that. I mean, if you look at your background, your experiences, the kind of path you went through, I wouldn't think HR executive. And in saying that, it also makes complete sense at the same time as somebody who's also had a bit of a nontraditional background. One of the areas that stood out for me when we were talking was your real passion about systems thinking and the idea of repeatable systems, consistent systems. I'm just curious about your thoughts on system thinking as it relates to HR, and maybe tell us a bit about where that came from. What drove you to having more of.
Kevin McDonald: A systems thinking mindset.
Kevin McDonald: So, early on in my career, and when I say early on, like literally being 18 year old in human resources, a lot of my opportunities came because people left and moved on. And it opened up an opportunity.
Kevin McDonald: I never ran from those.
Kevin McDonald: The position came open to retirement plan work. I was 19 years old. What do I know about retirement plans? Right? So it's those kind of opportunities, though. But it was a great learning opportunity. And then the next thing after that was kind of more in the health and welfare area of the benefits department. And one of the, great kind of stories of my career. And I think what probably was the.
Kevin McDonald: Project that pushed me, mostly in.
Kevin McDonald: One direction, we had a new.
Kevin McDonald: Head of benefits come in, and this.
Kevin McDonald: Was in 1997 or 1998. So this is pre the big internet.
Kevin McDonald: It was open enrollment time.
Kevin McDonald: So this is October of 97 or.
Kevin McDonald: Whatever year it was.
Kevin McDonald: And we're literally walking around packets on a Sunday, walking around the bank, dropping them on people's in their offices or on their desk so that they can fill out a paper form, hand it back to us, and we can go key it into a system. And he looked at me and said, we're never doing this again. And I said, Amen. And he said, Your job, like, starting right now is to figure out how we cannot do this again next year. And it gave me an opportunity to I mean, he gave me free rein and it gave me an opportunity. We ended up partnering with a web design firm. Wasn't even an HR firm, just a web design firm.
Kevin McDonald: And they built us our first open.
Kevin McDonald: Enrollment website, collect elections. Brought them into a system, sent them out to the vendors. It was great. So that really, I think, was my first introduction to big problem solving with technology because, everything came into play. Oh, that's right, people need passwords. What are we going to do again? This was before the days of Octa.
Kevin McDonald: Single sign on, and it made you.
Kevin McDonald: Really think about things on a holistic basis. And to me, that's kind of what systems thinking is. Looking at a problem from every angle you can possibly do and making sure that you cared for it doesn't mean you always are going to do something for it. Sometimes the answer is, I'm acknowledging it and I'm acknowledging that it's going to be a problem and that's okay, right? There's plenty of situations like that. So that's the way I look at it. And I've kind of approached everything from.
Kevin McDonald: That perspective probably early in my career.
Kevin McDonald: Just because I didn't know any better. I was too stupid to know that.
Kevin McDonald: I didn't know what I didn't know.
Kevin McDonald: Ego gets in the way, right? You want to be the smartest person in the room. You want to be the one who.
Kevin McDonald: Comes up with a great idea.
Kevin McDonald: And I would tell you that very soon. It didn't take me long to realize you never want to be the smartest person in the room. You want to surround yourself with really smart people and turn them loose. And that's what I've done. I mean, my team here at Scripps is amazing. It's just an amazing team. I try not to praise them too much because I don't want anybody to try to steal them. They really are. I mean, the work they do and.
Kevin McDonald: The thought they put into it.
Kevin McDonald: Systems thinking is just so ingrained in.
Kevin McDonald: The DNA of our team that I.
Kevin McDonald: Don'T have to worry about that we're going to miss something, we're not going to miss anything. And we're all very collaborative and nobody's ego gets in the way. So to me, I think partnering with other areas in the organization as well is really important. It's rare that a project of any scale is just going to be done within the vacuum of my team. I need great relationships with it. I need great relationships with finance and accounting. I need great relationships with our change in communications team, which sits in our corporate communications group. I need great relationships with these people. I need great relationships with the people m other people in HR so they can say, oh, did you think about how that's going to affect this employee population? And this, oh, thank you for bringing that up. But I think that to me is kind of just systems thinking and kind of how we approach things and how I approach things.
Matt Burns: And I think you're underselling yourself a little bit, because that's not when I think about systems thinking. And not to make this a binary conversation, because it's certainly not, but you and I have certainly had experience working with a number of different kinds of professionals who ascribe to systems thinking. And it's very easy to look at systems thinking through a narrow lens, which is time, money, materials. You can look at systems thinking like your point, to use your earlier example, I have to do open enrollment. Let's put everything on a website, let's make it super efficient for the administrators. Let's not consider ourselves or bother ourselves with the user experience, or with the stakeholder engagement, or with the communications and chain strategy, or the training and adoption strategy.
Kevin McDonald: But let's just automate it.
Matt Burns: What's unique about your approach and what I love about your approach to systems thinking is the system is not a binary question. It is an inclusive system. It's almost an ecosystem of sorts where you're really leveraging the collective power and knowledge and experience and passion of the group to deliver a better output for everyone. And that's what I think is one of the key things when I think about your contributions to the HR profession broadly, but also to your organization, is that way of thinking. Because I've certainly been partied of conversations with really talented project managers and talented data scientists and talented members of our project management office who may struggle to see some of the blind spots around the impact to the employee population or to, our reputational risk in the broader society.
Kevin McDonald: So I think just kudos to you.
Matt Burns: For I want to call that out because it's something that is unique and certainly has obviously served you well.
Kevin McDonald: On the subject of project management, I'm.
Matt Burns: Just curious, you mentioned again this nontraditional background. I'm assuming you didn't ultimately get a project management certification, but also similarly learned through the school of experience and hard knocks and mentorship about project management.
Kevin McDonald: Maybe talk to you a bit about.
Matt Burns: That journey, about the evolution of your project management approach in a nontraditional, non academic way.
Kevin McDonald: I think some of this is just the way I'm wired give credit to know mom and biological father DNA, because I'm certainly wired very task oriented, right? So my wife always makes fun of me. I have my trusty Franklin planner here still. Yes, I use a paper Franklin planner have for years. But I think project management for me is just more of a discipline and a mindset than it really is. A, of course you can go get a certification and learn how to use Microsoft Project or all the other great project management tools. And there's nothing wrong with that, don't get me wrong, but that's not how I learn. Again, I think it's more of a discipline. And when you're responsible for the amount of things that I'm responsible for and self inflicted, right. Things that I've gotten involved in, if you're not good at managing yourself, but also kind of managing the tasks around you because you're so reliant on other.
Kevin McDonald: People, it's going to be really tough.
Kevin McDonald: And so for me, I've always just approached project management, really in every aspect of my life. It's not something that I turn off.
Kevin McDonald: At home and I just do at work.
Kevin McDonald: Whether that's task lists agreement on deliverables, I think it drives my wife nuts sometimes. I'm like, so we're going to do that Tuesday by noon. And she's like, oh my God. She always tells me, stop managing me. So we have that conversation. But from a true just project management standpoint, as it relates to work, I'm a big believer in, I think, just some core things that makes critical to making any project successful, really, regardless of size. The first thing is properly define the problem. We're doing this to solve some problem. And one of my favorite quotes, I'm.
Kevin McDonald: A big quote guy, the coach.
Kevin McDonald: I know you can imagine that. But, a problem well stated is half solved. If I can properly define the problem, you'd be amazed how far that puts you down the path of actually, figuring out what your solution is. And I've found because I've always been in a position, regardless of what my job has been at work, I've always found myself in a position where people come to me with problems, asking me to help them solve. And that's probably why I've gotten pretty good at it over the years, because I've had a lot of experience. I'm amazed at the percent, and it's a big percentage of those times where through conversation I've learned that they don't even really know what the real problem is. They know what the symptoms of the problem are, but they don't really know what the real problem is. That root cause analysis.
Kevin McDonald: Getting to the real problem, ensuring you have the right people involved.
Kevin McDonald: Again, I can't tell you how liberating.
Kevin McDonald: It was the day that it hit.
Kevin McDonald: Me that I didn't have to be the smartest person in the room and.
Kevin McDonald: I didn't want to be to get.
Kevin McDonald: Other people involved and rely on them. I work with some incredible people, and.
Kevin McDonald: I always have, whether that's people that.
Kevin McDonald: I work with at scripts or even external people that I have access to.
Kevin McDonald: Kind of my network.
Kevin McDonald: It's amazing you let people help you. How good of a solution you can come know? I'm a big believer in guiding. Like, one of the first things I do on any project is what are our guiding know? And they can be anything. One of the great examples we had when we started doing the HR transformation, when Lisa first brought me over to Scripps was our guiding principles. And one of them was from Lisa. Consistent where possible, custom where it, you know, yeah, we're dealing in states that might have a state law that requires us to do something different than our standard policy, or we have union contracts that might be a little bit different. That's custom where it counts, we have to do that. But everything else, we're going to be consistent. And it's amazing how much mileage if you can get the right people to agree, then it kind of eliminates these smaller decisions because we've already agreed to this, so we don't need to yeah, I can inform you, but we're moving forward. Otherwise, without guiding principles, you get lost in the weeds so quickly. You have scope creep, you have over budget, not on time. You have all these problems that come up and a lot of it's just because people didn't either have or didn't adhere to their guiding principles. Change management. Change management and testing. It's so funny to me. People always say change management, testing. It's the first things to get cut when a project well, of course they are, because they're at the end of the project. I'm not going to cut something at the beginning because I don't even know that I'm behind at that point. Right. So of course they're the last things. They're the things that are going to get cut just logically. That said, if I've properly prepared for them and I've brought those people along the project with me, even if I have to cut that from three weeks to two weeks, I usually can recover from that, right. It's when I wait until, hey, I need you now. That's when I'm going to get you involved. Well, yeah, that's a real problem. So thinking about those things that you're going to need, up front so you can get those people involved are huge. And then, of course, setting a set of tasks and holding people accountable to what they've said that they would deliver, those are just things that are basic project management fundamentals and disciplines that if you don't have, you're going to struggle. And we've had many examples of them externally. I mean, go Google project management disasters and have fun the next week reading them all. it's out there and it usually boils down to one of those kind of fundamental reasons that failed.
Kevin McDonald: M hey everyone, it's Matt here.
Matt Burns: I hope you're enjoying today's conversation. And before we continue, I want to.
Matt Burns: Update you on my latest creative project, this Week at Work.
Matt Burns: Every Friday at 07:00 a.m Pacific Standard Time. That's 10:00 a.m. Eastern and 03:00. P.m GMT. My good friend Chris Rainey of HR Leaders and I discuss the latest trending topics on the minds of executives globally. From organizational culture to technology and the.
Matt Burns: Future of work, we cover it all.
Matt Burns: And we invite some of our favorite colleagues to join us, from Dave Ulrich to Whitney Johnson and executives from iconic brands such as NASA, Krispy Kreme, and WebMD.
Kevin McDonald: What can I say?
Matt Burns: We like to keep things interesting.
Matt Burns: And if you've been following us for a while, you'll no doubt recognize the fun partnership chris and I have developed over years podcasting together.
Matt Burns: We're not afraid to be real, share our own challenges, and ask the tough questions.
Kevin McDonald: Joining?
Matt Burns: Well, that part's easy. Follow me on LinkedIn, click the bell.
Matt Burns: Icon on the top right of my profile, and you'll get notified when we go live.
Matt Burns: And now back to our discussion.
Kevin McDonald: Welcome.
Matt Burns: And there's an element of trial and error. And like you, I had a background of project and program management as a consequence of just experience. And I was lucky to have mentors that worked with me, and in particular, helping me with the change management parts. Because like you, I was very task oriented. I grew up in a family where my father was a police officer, his father was in the military. It was structured and it was very much you deliver. But maybe some of the nuance around empathy and emotional intelligence may have been lacking at times with some of the direction that we received, learning that just because something is maybe the air quotes right thing to do doesn't mean people actually are going to take action against it. That you have to work with people and they have to feel part of the decision and need to feel heard and that their concerns are properly addressed. One of the things that I learned the hard way in managing projects throughout my career was this idea of failing fast and in negotiating failure up front with your stakeholders. I mean, I entered into, an organization where there was this real strong pressure to every project had to be delivered with perfection. So we would spend weeks just like, poring over PowerPoint slides, looking for spelling errors and having meetings before meetings and meetings after meetings. And it became this like, you're so terrified to make a mistake that you're tying up resources that could be used to advance other things in the organization, but everyone's just going to cover their own behinds. And I learned through a really strong mentor of mine, Karen Calder, who's been on the show before, that if you can negotiate with your stakeholders up front, that this is going to be an imperfect result and that we're going to iterate with your feedback. Over time, you almost allow yourself that imperfection, and you can move so much faster. We had a mentor once who would often say things like, give me 80% of your best, but give it to me fast, so give me most of what I can expect, but just give it to me quickly so we can learn and take action. Let's not get hung up on bureaucracy and hand wring and just going back and forth. Let's actually deliver some results. And one of the things that we learned from that was the importance of coaching throughout the process. And that's something that's been a through line in terms of your professional and personal life, is just this coaching. Whether it's with your daughters and basketball, or whether it's at work and coaching leaders, coaching has been a big part of your career. And I'm curious, looking back on the years that you've done that, both professionally and personally, what stands out for you in terms of maybe coaching best practices.
Kevin McDonald: And what do you see as being.
Matt Burns: Some of the maybe differences and similarities in coaching people that are whether it's in your personal life and kids and sports or adults in a professional context?
Kevin McDonald: Yeah, one of the things that coaching taught me, been able to apply for myself in my personal life and my.
Kevin McDonald: Professional life is a patience.
Kevin McDonald: I've coached twelve years or going into my twelveTH year of school basketball. I coached.
Kevin McDonald: AAU.
Kevin McDonald: Basketball. I've coached boys, girls. I've coached across the spectrum, across the spectrum of ages, from fifth grade all the way up. I've never scored a point in one.
Kevin McDonald: Of those games, never gotten a rebound.
Kevin McDonald: I've never done anything in those games. I have tried simply to put the kids in the best possible scenario to win. And certainly I have not been successful at that. I've made bad decisions and stuff like that. But it's really about them being able to I guess she's be humble enough to say, yeah, one of the things used to drive me nuts is people congratulate me on the win. Hey, congratulations, Coach. I'm like, I'll let the girls know. Thank you, but I'll let the girls know they did the work.
Kevin McDonald: Right. They put in the work.
Kevin McDonald: So from that standpoint, I think where I've been able to translate that to.
Kevin McDonald: My work life is, again, yeah, we've.
Kevin McDonald: Had a successful project, and our workday implementation was just flawless. Even workday told us, and one source, virtual, our partner, told us, it is one of the most successful deployments we've ever seen.
Kevin McDonald: It's not about me.
Kevin McDonald: My team did all that work. I didn't configure a single thing. I didn't run a single test scenario. They did that work while we were keeping the lights on, in our previous system right. And doing three acquisitions and all the.
Kevin McDonald: Other stuff we had going on at that time.
Kevin McDonald: So I think that idea that valuing the team and really understanding that the role you play might be managing, but it's really putting the. Right people in the right positions to be successful and letting them do their.
Kevin McDonald: Job, not kind of over managing.
Kevin McDonald: So that's one just in terms of if you just look at the correlation between sports and business, we could go on for 3 hours, on that.
Kevin McDonald: One question because there's so many.
Kevin McDonald: Just the idea of just from an.
Kevin McDonald: Individual standpoint, discipline, hard work, being focused.
Kevin McDonald: Being a good teammate, those are things that are going to make you successful in business or in, sports. The biggest thing resilience. It's one of the things I actually did a speech at the end of the season a couple of years ago when we have the parents and kids in the room, kind of an awards night, and it was all about resilience. And I was kind of just urging the kids and urging their parents, like Crave, adversity crave, going through hard stuff.
Kevin McDonald: It was Kara Lawson, Duke coach, that.
Kevin McDonald: Said something to the effect of we're not trying to avoid hard stuff, we're trying to make hard stuff easier. Right. And the only way you do that is by going through other hard stuff.
Kevin McDonald: Right. You learn how to deal with it.
Kevin McDonald: I'm big on a next play mentality kids that I coach, and I have people on my team that will beat themselves up if a mistake is made. And it's like, no, you got to not do that. So back to your comment about give me 80%, but give it to me fast. You have to have leaders that provide that level of safety to people to.
Kevin McDonald: Fail fast or when they fail, that.
Kevin McDonald: It'S not going to cost them their job or cost them a promotion or like, it's okay, I've, got your back. And I think that level of trust is critical again, whether it's your teammate in a sport or whether it's your teammate mental health awareness and advocacy. And I'm so glad I was actually talking to a group, right before.
Kevin McDonald: We started this, talking about kind of.
Kevin McDonald: How that's been a real focus for companies recently, certainly since the Pandemic. But we have to be careful that we don't allow it to be an.
Kevin McDonald: Excuse for people to quit, right?
Kevin McDonald: Like, I see people like, stuff gets hard and they'll quit.
Kevin McDonald: And it's like, hey, if you're quitting.
Kevin McDonald: Because your passion is not in anymore, like, okay, I get it, or you want to pursue something else, I get it. But if you stick through it, it will not only help you in this situation, but it will propel you in life your ability to kind of get knocked down and get back up and keep going. So, like I said, I could go on for days about the parallels, but, those are just a few of the things.
Matt Burns: I want to go back a little bit, because one of the first stories you told was about technological innovation. You started with a story about how paper based benefits, enrollments. You're walking around desk to desk, and then collecting the paper, and then someone's then manually keying into a system. I'm sweating just thinking about the inefficiency with all that. But obviously, technology has had a huge part of the human resources profession. Organizational culture is evolving. And now technology is at a place where every organization, whether it identifies this as not, is a technology company. Every organization is now it's a data company. We're now in this era of a knowledge based economy. You mentioned the pandemic. We're in a remote, hybrid, nuanced world where technology is a catalyst for a lot of the things that we get.
Kevin McDonald: Done day to day.
Matt Burns: I'm just curious, from your perspective, looking.
Kevin McDonald: Over the course of your career, how.
Matt Burns: Do you see the intersection of HR operations and technology, specifically changing just the role of organizations going forward?
Kevin McDonald: When I started back in kind of the technology space, how to quantify that or qualify that, but kind of dealing with the scenario, like with open enrollment, it was really more about efficiency.
Kevin McDonald: Right.
Kevin McDonald: What can we do to make things more efficient? There was so much low hanging fruit in the late 90s, early 2000s, employee self service. Okay, so instead of Matt filling out a form and then me keying it into a system, I can just have him key it directly into the system, which is probably easier for him, and certainly then eliminates me having to do it. Like, why didn't we think of this sooner?
Kevin McDonald: Right?
Kevin McDonald: But that's just all about efficiency. That's not necessarily, a value play. It's just making us more efficient and better, certainly freeing us up to do different things. There was so much of that in the HR space that we spent a lot of time there, we spent years there in terms of just figuring out those types of efficiencies and implementing them, some of them harder than others, because there's regulatory issues that we have to work through, and privacy and all kinds of other things. So some of that was a little harder than others. But now if you look at where we're at, the efficiency play is not that there still aren't some opportunities, but that's largely done. How can I actually use my technology to drive value to the business? Not value to HR, value to the business? And so as I look at things, like, one of the big pushes for me recently, not only just in my team, but kind of across, the HR team, know, even outside of that is, data literacy. We've never been at a point in time where we have access to more data about our people than right now. It's more than what some people even know what to do with. Right. So how can we use that data? Podcast I was on with Bob Goodwin, he coined the kind of the phrase, what so what now?
Kevin McDonald: What?
Kevin McDonald: And I just loved was that's the kind of value that we can bring. Okay, I can tell you what our turnover was.
Kevin McDonald: So what?
Kevin McDonald: Okay, well, why is our turnover that.
Kevin McDonald: And then what do we do about it?
Kevin McDonald: That, to me, is kind of, a big play that HR has in terms of both technology, but also just in the business, is how can we.
Kevin McDonald: Put data, not just tells people what.
Kevin McDonald: Happened, but guides our leadership into what.
Kevin McDonald: They should do next? And being able to present it in.
Kevin McDonald: The form of an ROI and ROI doesn't always mean hard dollars, right. ROI could be in the form of employee engagement. It could take many forms, right? It could take forms of leadership development. I have more people in the pipeline that are ready for different roles.
Kevin McDonald: So we have to kind of get.
Kevin McDonald: Away from this idea that ROI always means it's $20,000.
Kevin McDonald: It doesn't necessarily mean that we can't.
Kevin McDonald: Really improve what we don't measure.
Kevin McDonald: So it starts with that.
Kevin McDonald: So one of the things we look at before we do pretty much any project is, or really any initiative now, is how are we going to measure success? Let's define what success looks like, and then let's figure out that we've built in the mechanisms to get the criteria out that we need to measure whether.
Kevin McDonald: That'S been successful over time.
Kevin McDonald: That's, I think, kind of where we're at now.
Matt Burns: Yeah, totally agree with you. And I think, well put in terms of the idea that you need to look at a balanced scorecard, I also think there's some realism that needs to come into play. And there are still HR professionals that I talk to that struggle to quantify the effect or the impact of the activities they're undertaking. And I would also advocate for this balanced scorecard approach, where you look at the financial impact, the operational impact, the impact to the employees, the impact to your customers, the impact of broader society. There is very much a price of admission, often is operational and financial KPIs. So it's understanding that while that may not be the totality of the value, you still have to establish value in those areas. It is rare that I've seen a, board of directors or a C suite in a Fortune 100 company approve a project based purely on good vibes.
Kevin McDonald: They're going to start with, is this.
Matt Burns: Going to be cost neutral? Is this going to deliver an operational KPI? Is this going to reduce our organizational risk? And then if there are second and third degree effects that impact positively other stakeholders, then that's just bonus points. But that's, in a lot of ways, the price of admission. And I think, again, the holistic way you look at this really does guide a broader approach. And I'm just curious, because, as we've talked, I'm mindful of the fact that you're very much a self directed learner, very much curious, looking for mentors, partnering, always willing to take on a project as we sit here today, it's 2023. We're more than halfway through the year. We're a couple of years out of a pandemic.
Kevin McDonald: Nick, what are some of the things.
Matt Burns: That are bouncing around your head right now in terms of innovations? What are some of the things that you're looking at in your spare time? Are you digging into AI? Are you digging into virtual reality? What are some of the things that you're kind of geeking out about when it comes to technology as it relates to the enterprise of the future?
Kevin McDonald: Yeah, I mean, to me, I think AI is very much a buzword right now. In the forefront of every conference agenda you look at, there's something about AI.
Kevin McDonald: In there, and there's some people that.
Kevin McDonald: Are using it in incredible ways.
Kevin McDonald: I mean, I can't remember, what did.
Kevin McDonald: I ask Chad GPT for the other day? And it was just crazy. It's like, boom, here it is. Like, wow, that's really cool, right? Figuring out how to really, deploy that in a professional environment. Obviously, there's some challenges, especially in HR, where, again, you have a lot of regulatory issues you have to work around. You have legal saying, hold on, you can't say that. So you got to be careful with that. But I think for me, the use of AI and the use of the technologies is, how can I make things as easy as possible for us to.
Kevin McDonald: Do business with being HR? Right?
Kevin McDonald: So if I'm an employee and I want to just text somebody to get an answer, right, I should be able to do that. What kind of chat bot can I deploy that allows me to text and just get an answer back on a policy or allows me to transact behind the scenes with the company? So, hey, you know what? I want to take a PTO day. Yeah, I could go in the app. Yeah, I could log in, but I could also just text this and say.
Kevin McDonald: I want to take next Friday off.
Kevin McDonald: How cool would that be?
Kevin McDonald: How easy would that be?
Kevin McDonald: I am all about trying to use technology to free, up the time as much as possible for my people so that they can spend as much time doing what they're really good at.
Kevin McDonald: And kind of what they're employed to do versus the tasks that we need.
Kevin McDonald: Them to do because they're an employee. So those are the kinds of uses for AI that we're exploring right now. We've deployed that to some extent, continue to try to look for things there. I think there are a lot of opportunities in learning and leadership development in terms of maybe it's not chat GPT, but it's something of that effect of there's a lot of stuff that we need to do from a compliance standpoint. Hey, write me a learning course that covers this. Right? You can use AI for that. Then there's some things that are more soft skills. Hey, write me a learning course for this, right? Or give me some resources that managers can use to brush up on insert topic here. So I think there are some uses that, if nothing else, it gives you a starting point, right? I'm a big believer in it's. A heck of a lot easier to start with something and kind of redline it or beat it up than it is to start with a blank sheet of paper. And I think that's where probably kind of start with some of that stuff.
Kevin McDonald: From an HR perspective, as we get.
Kevin McDonald: More and more virtual, are there opportunities for things like virtual reality and things like that? Maybe certainly from a training perspective, potentially putting people in scenarios, things like that, but that's probably secondary to the AI.
Matt Burns: Yeah, I think you're probably right with that. And I think if anything, VR, as, somebody who spent a lot of time in that industry, the VR will be improved by AI because simulations will become more complex when they become less choose your own adventure decision tree type of scenarios and more into iterative. Real time. You'll be able to communicate with a simulation in an AI context, and you'll be able to in real time, ingest what you've told it and then develop a scenario that allows you to learn and reverse engineers through large language models. Real time feedback versus do you choose to go left or do you choose to go right, which there's some value in doing that. And certainly as human beings, specifically as adults, we learn through experiential learning far more than we ever learn through PowerPoints and slides. And as somebody who had a nontraditional educational background like yourself, I have a great affinity for lived experiences as a method of learned experiences. One of the things that also fills.
Kevin McDonald: Me with a lot of optimism, I.
Matt Burns: Think by accident, in a lot of ways, you and I have chosen a profession that's very, for the most part, AI proof, innovation proof. Now certainly every profession has to evolve. The days of the HR coordinator posting jobs on Monster, the days of ingesting thousands of paper based resumes. My very first job in HR, I've told this story a number of times on this podcast, was filing forms into people's paper based files. And in large, those days are done. However, the profession has evolved to where HR people today need to be generalists outside of just HR. They need to know more than just policies and law. They need to understand data science and project management and communication and change and technology and finance and strategy and a.
Matt Burns: Number of other factors.
Matt Burns: For somebody listening today who's either started their career or about to start their career, who's thinking about a career in HR, what would be your advice to them as they embark upon that journey?
Kevin McDonald: I would tell you most of the stuff that I've learned to your point.
Kevin McDonald: I've learned by doing, or I've learned.
Kevin McDonald: By just, kind of a natural curiosity, or, hey, can I take you to lunch and pick your brain on something? For somebody in an area that I don't know or don't know as well, I would say the first thing is.
Kevin McDonald: Have a sense of adventure.
Kevin McDonald: Be naturally curious.
Kevin McDonald: It's okay to ask questions.
Kevin McDonald: It's okay to say you don't know.
Kevin McDonald: Then go seek out.
Kevin McDonald: There's an unknowable amount of information out there, right? You can't know everything beyond having that sense of adventure and really being comfortable, being uncomfortable.
Kevin McDonald: One of my favorites as well.
Kevin McDonald: Make connections and build relationships with people that not only that can help you, but you can also help in turn. But those people that truly, I would say, are kind of selfless and servant leaders themselves that absolutely are interested in helping somebody advance their own skills and advance their own career. Those relationships are just invaluable. You literally cannot put a price tag on them and really foster those relationships. One of the things in the world of remote work is that's become a little harder. So now we need to be more intentional about it.
Kevin McDonald: So be intentional about it.
Kevin McDonald: Build those relationships. As far as just skills, I could not agree with you more about the idea of being a generalist. I've always considered myself a generalist.
Kevin McDonald: People used to call me a utility.
Kevin McDonald: Player, kind of a baseball reference. Like, you can kind of plug me in anywhere.
Kevin McDonald: And one of the things that as.
Kevin McDonald: I look at my team and I think one of the things that's made us successful is just about every member of my team, if there was some issue in pretty much any part of the organization, I would feel very comfortable being able to parachute them into that situation. And I know they could provide some assistance even if it was in an.
Kevin McDonald: Area that they knew. So that kind of generalist.
Kevin McDonald: There's a great book called range is a great read that talks about kind of the generalist versus specialist. And not that one's bad or one.
Kevin McDonald: There'S a place for both.
Kevin McDonald: But I think in this world of, constant change, being that generalist and being adaptable is super important.
Kevin McDonald: So that's kind of my career advice to people.
Kevin McDonald: As people, younger people ask me, those.
Kevin McDonald: Are the things that I point to.
Matt Burns: It's great advice, and it's been a great conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Kevin McDonald: Matt, it's been great. Thank you very much.
Matt Burns: Ento HR is a digital transformation consultancy working at the intersection of strategy, technology, and people operations. We partner with organizations, private equity, and venture capital firms to accelerate value creation and identify the organization's highest leverage initiatives. And this can take place in many forms, from strategic planning and alignment to technology procurement, implementation, and integration, along with organizational design, process reengineering, and change management. With our proven track record of working with complex, high growth organizations, we provide a lens that goes beyond the balance sheet, increasing enterprise readiness, resilience and value the for more information, check us out@bentohr.com.